Ultimate space simulation software

 
User avatar
Propulsion Disk
Space Pilot
Space Pilot
Posts: 90
Joined: 04 Jun 2018
Location: In My lab at the moment.

How do you think we can get to Proxima b?

10 Jun 2018 10:44

FastFourierTransform wrote:
Propulsion Disk wrote:
Source of the post which means electrons get eroded by the things in space

I know we said this several times now but I want to emphasize this. If atomic erosion is a strange use of the term "erosion" then electron erosion is just totally wrong. Electrons are elementary particles, they do not erode. If you have a strange substance made of billions of electrons then yeah, you could say that de substance can be eroded, electrons can be lost, electrons can be dispersed with time by mechanical or electromagnetic forces, but that is the erosion of your special "electron substance" in the best case, no erosion of the electrons themselves. No electron is different from any other electron in the entire cosmos (besides their location in space). They all have the same mass, the same charge and the same spin. An electron "eroding" would transform into what? what aditional feature would change so you can discern between a fresh new electron and an eroded one? would lose what? mass? charge? then is not an elecron anymore (ignoring the fact that electron's charge is a quanta and it can't be lost). Would they change form? their rought spherical surfaces would be polished by erosion? No, because they don't have texture, they don't have any geometrical form associated with them. The representation of electrons as colored tiny spheres is just misleading when it comes to this. They are just that, a mass, a charge and a precise spin combined. They are elementary particles, fundamental blocks of nature. You can disarange a collection of fundamental blocks but you can't disarange them one by one because they are just that, elemetary in nature and all identical with one another. If they could be eroded then electrons wouldn't be elementary particles, they could be split in more elementary pieces so they would be complex composite objects. But there is not a single line of evidence pointing to that and there is no theoretical backup for that idea either so talking about erosion at this scale is just wrong.


I'm goin to give you a more common example for what we mean here by simple vs complex systems;
Do you have a LCD TV screen near you? Take a close look to the screen (with a magnifying glass if you can). You would notice that the image is generated by small elementary pixels. Each pixel has 3 properties, or in this case 3 colors, red, green and blue, that light up in a controled fashion.

Image


As you can see there is no yellow color. But your screen is sure capable of producing yellow tones, and orange, and purple, and black. Where are these colors coming from if your screen is just a collection of red, green, blue lightbulbs? Well, one way of saying it is that yellow it's coming from complexity of the system. The arrangement of pixels, their lighting patterns can generate an emergent property in a macroscopic scale that is an entire new color, and that color is something more than the sum of the colors each pixel has. Your screen is a complex system, your pixels are not, they are "the elementary particles" of the "TV screen universe".

So, does one pixel has yellow in it somewhere? No. Does one pixel has the potentiality of yellow in it? No. There is some essence of yelowness in each pixel? No. Is complexity the one that generated the yellow color in your screen (it could be regarded as an effect that has to do with the integration in time and frequency domain of our visual system, don't think of it as ghostly appearence, but in the end is just an emergent feature of a complex system).

The same works with the mind. Do you think a neuron has conciusness? or intelligence? No, they only perform chemical reactions. But when you contemplate the macroscopic scale of an array of billions of neurons firing with certain patterns then an emergent property comes out. Intelligence and counciousness could only be that, an emergent property of a vast collection of neurons. Neurons don't have intelligence as the pixels lack yellow, but complexity bring both to life.

The same reasoning can be applied here. Atoms nor electrons can have erosion, because erosion is an emergent phenomena when contemplating vast arrangements of particles, like a mountain, a rock or a screw. There is no erosion for each individual component of matter. It wouldn't make sense. This is not a semantic problem it has to do with mixing everyday classical concepts that can apply to our macroscopic world with a realm where they do not apply anymore. You can't search for erosion if the system is not complex enought, as you can't find the yellowness of your pixels in your TV, or the conciusness of a neuron in your brain, or a computer virus in an electrical circuit, or a master plan in the contruction of an ant colony, etc...


I recognize that there is also a semantic issue here in the case of atoms (since atoms can be dissasembled because they are a little higher in the staircase of complexity when compared to electrons). There is also a debate on the metaphysics of identity. A rock can lose it's pointy shape while been eroded by a river and lose some mass (grains are been stripped from the rock itself) but still be considered and categorised as a rock. An atom is not like that. If an hydrogen atom lose an electron it's strange to call it an atom anymore because it's just a proton. If an hydrogen atom loses it's proton then you just have an electron, so it is difficult to follow the idea of erosion here, just as a non-alcoholic Cuba Libre is just Coca-Cola. But I don't care about this since methaphysics shouldn't be part of any rational discussion. I care about aplying macroscopic behaviours to sub-atomic particles.

So the Wikipedia was wrong! it said that the starshot's coating was to prevent "atomic particle erosion" and that made me think that the coating was to protect the electrons (atomic particles) from cosmic rays. It says right here, "atomic particle erosion" in the "protective coating" section. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_Starshot#Protective_coating
I'm good when it comes to Physics, Algebra, Relativity, Space, and SpaceEngine. But I could still use a LOT of help on the things I still don't know. So I hope I get a lot of help on how all that works, here!
 
User avatar
FastFourierTransform
Explorer
Explorer
Posts: 199
Joined: 17 Nov 2016

How do you think we can get to Proxima b?

11 Jun 2018 05:38

Propulsion Disk wrote:
Source of the post It says right here, "atomic particle erosion" in the "protective coating"

Wikipedia is not wrong. Maybe it's easy to misinterpret that. When they say atomic particle erosion they are not talking about atoms or subatomic particles been eroded, they are refering to the erosion produced BY atomic particles ON the coatings of the solar sail. At relativistic speeds cosmic rays, atoms and even molecules can hit with such energy that, with enought time, the coatings can lose mass by violent sputtering. It's the coatings (layers of billions of atoms) that get eroded not the atoms themselves. Atomic particles are just the projectiles that are actively eroding the material of the coating not the subjects of erosion.
 
User avatar
Propulsion Disk
Space Pilot
Space Pilot
Posts: 90
Joined: 04 Jun 2018
Location: In My lab at the moment.

How do you think we can get to Proxima b?

11 Jun 2018 06:48

FastFourierTransform wrote:
Propulsion Disk wrote:
Source of the post It says right here, "atomic particle erosion" in the "protective coating"

Wikipedia is not wrong. Maybe it's easy to misinterpret that. When they say atomic particle erosion they are not talking about atoms or subatomic particles been eroded, they are refering to the erosion produced BY atomic particles ON the coatings of the solar sail. At relativistic speeds cosmic rays, atoms and even molecules can hit with such energy that, with enought time, the coatings can lose mass by violent sputtering. It's the coatings (layers of billions of atoms) that get eroded not the atoms themselves. Atomic particles are just the projectiles that are actively eroding the material of the coating not the subjects of erosion.

Oh, easy misunderstanding. But to be fair it would have more sense if they said it like,
"A coating, possibly made of beryllium copper, is planned to protect the nanocraft from dust collisions and erosion from cosmic rays."
I'm good when it comes to Physics, Algebra, Relativity, Space, and SpaceEngine. But I could still use a LOT of help on the things I still don't know. So I hope I get a lot of help on how all that works, here!
 
User avatar
Propulsion Disk
Space Pilot
Space Pilot
Posts: 90
Joined: 04 Jun 2018
Location: In My lab at the moment.

How do you think we can get to Proxima b?

11 Jun 2018 07:18

Does anyone know what the starshot looks like?
I'm good when it comes to Physics, Algebra, Relativity, Space, and SpaceEngine. But I could still use a LOT of help on the things I still don't know. So I hope I get a lot of help on how all that works, here!
 
User avatar
Propulsion Disk
Space Pilot
Space Pilot
Posts: 90
Joined: 04 Jun 2018
Location: In My lab at the moment.

How do you think we can get to Proxima b?

22 Jun 2018 17:00

Watsisname wrote:
Source of the post Batteries and MMRTGs also do not make new electrons anymore than capacitors do.

I looked back and found this. On the Wikipedia it says that MMRTGs use the natural decay of plutonium 238 to make ELECTRICITY, electricity is the same as voltage right? So MMRTGs can produce electrons for capacitors.
I'm good when it comes to Physics, Algebra, Relativity, Space, and SpaceEngine. But I could still use a LOT of help on the things I still don't know. So I hope I get a lot of help on how all that works, here!
 
User avatar
Mosfet
World Builder
World Builder
Posts: 981
Joined: 24 Oct 2016
Location: Italy

How do you think we can get to Proxima b?

22 Jun 2018 18:01

Decay produces alpha and beta particles, which have positive and negative charge respectively, but they are protons/neutrons and electrons simply stripped away because of the instability of 238Pu atoms, not created from nothingness, I think that's what Watsisname is saying.
"Time is illusion. Lunchtime doubly so". Douglas N. Adams
My mods | My specs: Asus x555ub - cpu i5-6200u, ram 4gb, gpu nvidia geforce 940m 2gb vram | IRC freenode.net canale ##SpaceEngineITA
 
vlad01
Space Tourist
Space Tourist
Posts: 39
Joined: 02 May 2018

How do you think we can get to Proxima b?

23 Jun 2018 01:35

Electricity is just the flow of electrons or ions, and also electron vacancies "holes"

Any form of generation merely pushes them around to produce a flow, which then can be used to have useful work done.

RGTs are basically a heat source with a sort of peltier modules run in reverse to produce a flow of electricity as opposed to running electricity through them for a heat pump effect (cooling effect)
 
User avatar
FastFourierTransform
Explorer
Explorer
Posts: 199
Joined: 17 Nov 2016

How do you think we can get to Proxima b?

23 Jun 2018 02:29

Propulsion Disk wrote:
Source of the post On the Wikipedia it says that MMRTGs use the natural decay of plutonium 238 to make ELECTRICITY, electricity is the same as voltage right? So MMRTGs can produce electrons for capacitors.

Electricity, by itself, is a broad term that could mean different more specific things. In the case of Wikipedia's article when they say "MMRTGs make electricity" they are saying that MMRTGs can generate electric current (and that in turn means some Voltage yes). But nothing here says that new electrons are produced (nor they say that they anything about capacitors). Electric current as a physical phenomenon does not need new electrons (or electric charges in general) to withstand. Electric current is the flow of electric charge. If you are able to make that flow continuous in a close circuit then no new electrons are needed, you provide the same many many times.

Let's digress into the hidraulic analogy (water flows behave in many aspects like charge flow in a circuit so there are a lot of clever examples that can be translated to hidraulic circuits to make the topic closer to our daily experience). Electric in yellow and hidraulic equivalent in turquoise. You can immagine electric current as a water flow, electrons or any electrical charge is equivalent to the water molecules in the water flow. A river flows from the top of a mountain to the bottom following the gravitational field of Earth just as electric charges follow the electric field inside the wires. The difference in height from the top of the mountain and the bottom inside the gravitational field gives rise to a potential energy at the top of the mountain that is slowly transformed into kinetic energy as the water moves to get to the bottom, in electricity there's the electric potential energy, that gives rise to the same behaviour; the electric charges move as they search a way to release the pontential energy (voltage is just a way to measure the potential energy without taking into account the charge of the particle so is a little more abstract concept but it almost represent the same as potential energy). Now if you don't put more water on top of the mountain the river will finally dry out, but we can use mechanical force to lift the water accumulated in the bottom to the top of the mountain again with a water pump so that we don't need more water molecules than those we have in the hydraulic circuit. The same reasoning works for electric current; if we let the current flow through the wire there is going to be a moment were it stops, when all the potential energy has been released and the charges have no reason to flow uppwards into the voltage hill again. But we can put a battery in the circuit so that the carges can be lifted to a higher potential energy (or voltage) and the flow can start again, like an electric fountain.

So a battery does not generate new electrons nor is a deposit of electrons just like a water pump is not a "water molecules generator" nor a water deposit. A battery is a device that uses energy (generally stored in the chemical bonds of some substances) to generate a force (electromotive force is called) that can lift charges to a higher voltage so that the electric circuit can start again and the flow of charges (the current) can endure. A water pump is a device that uses energy (for example stored chemically in your muscles) to generate a force (a mechanical force) that can lift water molecules to a higher place inside the gravitational field of Earth, so that the hydraulic circuit can start again and the flow of water (the hydraulic current) can endure. It's important to note: the system of water pump and arm muscles is like the battery in the electric realm, both store energy (and they can be depleted of it, as your muscles get exhaust and you need nutrients to regain your hability to move them or as the chemical reactions inside the battery cease and it gets discharged), they do not store water or electrons, just energy to pump those into higher potentials.
In reality this is much more complex and I haven't been strictly rigorous (energy is not the cause of a force for example but I wrote it like that to make it more easy to follow the main reasoning).


The hydraulic analogs have helped students for decades to understand how electric circuits work with everyday examples. Using sponges as resistors, pumps as batteries, diafragms and water tanks as capacitors and pipes as wires you can even build anhydraulic computer (not very fast but very educational) that can even solve advanced differential equations.

Take a look to some of these videos, they are very helpfull to understand visually what's going on.



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest