Ultimate space simulation software

 
Mouthwash
Explorer
Explorer
Topic Author
Posts: 177
Joined: 22 May 2017 05:11

Can you prove that the Earth isn't a hollow sphere?

21 Jul 2017 11:07

I found this website today, run by an interesting fellow called 'Wild Heretic.' It seems really intricate and comprehensive, so I thought it would be interesting to post here. Wild Heretic believes that we live on the inside of a hollow sphere, lit by a half-light half-dark Sun at its center (he claims that light bends in order to produce the effect of rising and setting), that the moon is an optical illusion, that manmade satellites don't really exist, that the stars are light artifacts produced in the atmosphere and can never be seen above it, and he has a bunch of explanations for the other celestial bodies like comets and galaxies.

It all seems shockingly intelligent (although he does insist that the fact that the Earth doesn't move under your feet when you jump disproves heliocentrism). He also has nine pieces of evidence for his model:

1. Some early modern maps have inversed latitude and longitude
2. Modern polyconic maps show more accurate sizes and shapes
3. 19th century balloon observations (that is, without an intervening medium) gave the impression of a concave surface
4. 4,000 foot plumb lines reportedly were farther away from each other at the bottom of a mine shaft
5. A laser shot between two posts (over water) seems to curve downwards
6. An old rectilineator experiment indicates a concave surface (the experiment has been criticized here)
7. Radar and radio wave horizons cannot be explained on a convex ball
8. Ships disappearing below the horizon are an optical illusion
9. Light bends upwards, which allows for the rising/setting illusion of the sun and moon

What do ya'll say? Can you refute all this, or must we accept that everything we know is a lie?
Last edited by Mouthwash on 21 Jul 2017 19:48, edited 6 times in total.
 
User avatar
Cantra
Pioneer
Pioneer
Posts: 403
Joined: 02 Nov 2016 18:23
Location: Sedna

Can you prove that the Earth isn't a hollow sphere?

21 Jul 2017 11:15

When you jump you are moving with the Earth, even as you go into the air. Thus it does not move. 
Just a random user on the internet, nothing to see here.
 
Mouthwash
Explorer
Explorer
Topic Author
Posts: 177
Joined: 22 May 2017 05:11

Can you prove that the Earth isn't a hollow sphere?

21 Jul 2017 11:20

When you jump you are moving with the Earth, even as you go into the air. Thus it does not move. 
Yes... that is something I know quite well. Can you please make a better effort to read before responding?
 
User avatar
Spacer
Pioneer
Pioneer
Posts: 326
Joined: 22 Aug 2016 15:17
Location: mevaseret zion, israel

Can you prove that the Earth isn't a hollow sphere?

21 Jul 2017 11:22

mmm after reading some of it, sorry but not to offend, it sound very wrong. the stars are bits of the sun?
and this image from 400km height showing the entire planet? it looks like an image from 30000km away
it even doesnt look like earth to me.
Image
maybe it is one of the wrong images he is talking about?
i will read it more when i come back home. i had a glimpse of it
"man cannot discover new oceans unless he has the courage to lose sight of the shore"
-Andre Gide
 
User avatar
JackDole
Star Engineer
Star Engineer
Posts: 1874
Joined: 02 Nov 2016 18:18
Location: Terra

Can you prove that the Earth isn't a hollow sphere?

21 Jul 2017 12:04

In fact, Eratosthenes already proved over 2200 years ago that the earth is a globe and that we live on the outer surface.
JackDole's Universe 0.990: http://forum.spaceengine.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=546
JackDole's Archive: http://forum.spaceengine.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=419
JackDole: Mega structures ... http://old.spaceengine.org/forum/17-3252-1 (Old forum)
 
Mouthwash
Explorer
Explorer
Topic Author
Posts: 177
Joined: 22 May 2017 05:11

Can you prove that the Earth isn't a hollow sphere?

21 Jul 2017 12:27

In fact, Eratosthenes already proved over 2200 years ago that the earth is a globe and that we live on the outer surface.
How does he do that? I'm no great shakes at physics, but it seems like he just proved that the Earth is round.
 
User avatar
HarbingerDawn
SE Team Member
SE Team Member
Posts: 694
Joined: 22 Aug 2016 15:11
Location: CT, USA
Contact:

Can you prove that the Earth isn't a hollow sphere?

21 Jul 2017 12:39

How does he do that? I'm no great shakes at physics, but it seems like he just proved that the Earth is round.
Carl Sagan explains it here:
that manmade satellites don't really exist,
As someone who was watched the International Space Station fly overhead and enter orbital sunset many times, and who has photographed it in detail, I can assure you that this is false.
5. A laser shot between two posts (over water) seems to curve downwards
Exactly what you would expect if you lived on the outside of a sphere. If you lived on the inside, it would seem to curve upwards.

Besides all of this, if you observe ships moving away from you over the horizon, you notice that their highest parts disappear last, and that when they are just over the horizon, you are seeing them from a downward angle, which would be impossible if we were not living on the outer surface of a round object.
Ryzen 7 3700X, 64 GB DDR4-3200 RAM, RTX 3090 24 GB VRAM
Posts on old forum: 8717
 
User avatar
Marko S.
Explorer
Explorer
Posts: 217
Joined: 02 Jul 2017 07:43
Location: Serbia

Can you prove that the Earth isn't a hollow sphere?

21 Jul 2017 14:07

Title says that if we can prove that Earth isn't hollow. Then, why everybody are arguing about flat Earth? There's a lot of holes in Flat Earth model. But still is debatable as much as hollow Earth.
I will certainly read those claims and come with conclusion.
Specs: Ram: 8gb | Vram: 1gb | Graphics card: AMD Radeon | Hard-drive: 1tb | Processor: AMD Athlon X4 750 Quad Core Processor | CPU: 3.40 GHz | OS: Win 10 and XP (lol) |
We use time just to orientate through space.
 
User avatar
midtskogen
Star Engineer
Star Engineer
Posts: 1537
Joined: 11 Dec 2016 12:57
Location: Oslo, Norway
Contact:

Can you prove that the Earth isn't a hollow sphere?

21 Jul 2017 14:57

It was well known in antiquity that the Earth was round for several reasons. Not just thanks to Eratosthenes. In particular, it was also noted that lunar eclipses occurred at different times of the day depending on the observation location.  Pliny (1st century AD) gave a long list of arguments in his Natural History.
NIL DIFFICILE VOLENTI
 
User avatar
Watsisname
Science Officer
Science Officer
Posts: 2318
Joined: 06 Sep 2016 02:33
Location: Bellingham, WA

Can you prove that the Earth isn't a hollow sphere?

21 Jul 2017 20:43

Can you prove that the Earth isn't a hollow sphere?
Yes, easily, using data collected by our own forum members.  I'll use two examples.

1)  The propagation of seismic waves.

On the old forum, midtskogen showed a recording of an earthquake which took place in New Zealand, from his station in Norway.  A key observation in this recording is the lack of direct shear waves.

Shear waves are not visible from stations located more than about 120° from the earthquake center, because they cannot penetrate through the liquid outer core of the Earth.

Another observation is to use the arrival time of the first vibration as a function of distance across the surface of the Earth.  If we live on the inside of a hollow sphere, then this arrival time should grow linearly with that distance, because the fastest path the earthquake waves can possibly take is through the surface.

But what we actually observe that the delay grows more slowly with increasing distance:

Image

So, how does one reconcile these observations with a hollow Earth model?



2)  The strength and direction of local gravitational field.

On the solid Earth, your local gravity points downward with a strength within a few tenths of a percent of 9.81m/s[sup]2[/sup].  How would gravity work on the inside of a hollow Earth?

If you propose the gravity is due to the distribution of matter, then you have a problem.  The gravitational field inside of a hollow sphere is everywhere equal to zero!  We would all be weightless.

If you propose the gravity is an apparent force due to the Earth's rotation, then you still have a problem.  You cannot make the local apparent gravity be equal to g everywhere, or everywhere pointing downward with respect to your horizon.

Let's compute the formulas.  If standing at a latitude \theta on the inside of a hollow sphere with radius R, spinning with angular velocity \omega, then you experience a centrifugal acceleration of:

a = \omega^2 Rcos\theta, in a direction which is away from the axis of rotation and at an angle 90 - \theta degrees from your local horizon.  (Oh wait, there is no horizon on the inside of a hollow Earth). ;)  Okay, make that \theta degrees from nadir.

So at my location at 48°N, I should experience a gravitational force only 67% as strong as at the equator, and pointed 48° from nadir.  Midtskogen at 60°N should feel a force with 50% of the equatorial value, and at 60° from nadir.

Needless to say, this is very inconsistent with reality.  But I'll let midtskogen correct me if he happens to feel like he's standing on a 60° slope at 0.5g. :P



Now let's look at the nine so-called evidences for the hollow Earth.

"Some early modern maps have inversed latitude and longitude"
This is not evidence.  A sphere has the same geometry whether you are on the inside or the outside, and you can attach coordinates to it in any way you want.

"Modern polyconic maps show more accurate sizes and shapes"
Also not evidence, for the same reason.  Any projection of a curved surface onto two dimensions will work the same way whether the features you are mapping are on the inside or the outside of that surface.

"19th century balloon observations (that is, without an intervening medium) gave the impression of a conclave surface"
So we were on the inside of a hollow until the 20th century, and then suddenly it switched?  I like this conspiracy.

"4,000 foot plumb lines reportedly were farther away from each other at the bottom of a mine shaft"
Or we can cite the greater distance at the tops of the towers of the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge as a better established and contradictory example.
Furthermore, if this claim is true and we conclude it is because we're on the inside of a sphere and gravity is pulling them outwards, then we run into that above problem of explaining how gravity works.

"A laser shot between two posts (over water) seems to curve downwards"
Sure: atmospheric refraction.  Works just as well on being on the outside of a sphere as on the inside.  So this is not evidence.

"An old rectilineator experiment indicates a conclave surface (the experiment has been criticized here)"
Ok.

"Radar and radio wave horizons cannot be explained on a convex ball"
Sure they can.  Every experienced HAM radio operator is familiar the role of the ionosphere on radio wave propagation.

"Ships disappearing below the horizon are an optical illusion"
AKA:  "When faced with observations that are incompatible with your world view, declare them to be illusions."  Like stars, the Moon, and satellites.

"Light bends upwards, which allows for the rising/setting illusion of the sun and moon"
Atmospheric refraction again.  This isn't evidence of being on the inside of a hollow Earth.


So this list of nine evidences is really just a list of claims which are either wrong, dubious, or otherwise compatible with being on the outside of a sphere.


Edit:  Whoops, fixed some formatting errors.
 
User avatar
DoctorOfSpace
Star Engineer
Star Engineer
Posts: 1363
Joined: 22 Aug 2016 15:04
Location: SpaceX Mars Colony
Contact:

Can you prove that the Earth isn't a hollow sphere?

21 Jul 2017 21:18

Every time these sorts of threads or discussions come up Watsisname always comes in with an in depth and informative post and it never disappoints.   
CPU: Ryzen 9 5900X @5Ghz - RAM: G.Skill Ripjaws V 64 GB (2 x 32 GB) DDR4-3600 CL18 - GPU: MSI RTX 40​90 GAMING ​TRIO 24G
Quando omni flunkus, moritati
 
User avatar
Spacer
Pioneer
Pioneer
Posts: 326
Joined: 22 Aug 2016 15:17
Location: mevaseret zion, israel

Can you prove that the Earth isn't a hollow sphere?

21 Jul 2017 21:37

Every time these sorts of threads or discussions come up Watsisname always comes in with an in depth and informative post and it never disappoints.   
yeah, wats is awesome
"man cannot discover new oceans unless he has the courage to lose sight of the shore"
-Andre Gide
 
User avatar
Watsisname
Science Officer
Science Officer
Posts: 2318
Joined: 06 Sep 2016 02:33
Location: Bellingham, WA

Can you prove that the Earth isn't a hollow sphere?

21 Jul 2017 22:15

I also thought of using the gravitational time dilation with respect to altitude as a proof, because it's really cool, beautifully matches what you predict for the field outside a sphere, and is totally incompatible with being inside a hollow sphere.  But I doubt any of us have the precision of measurement to demonstrate it ourselves; you'd have to trust the scientists, and that's not as fun as seeing it yourself.

Another might be the Belt of Venus, which everyone can easily see, and its most natural explanation is the shadow of the Earth through the atmosphere.  You could explain it with a flat Earth, but I think it would be difficult to explain in a hollow earth model.  How does the shadow get projected upwards?  What is the Sun setting behind?

Where the heck does the Sun set in a hollow Earth, anyway?  Is part of Earth getting vaporized every time I watch it go down?
 
User avatar
Marko S.
Explorer
Explorer
Posts: 217
Joined: 02 Jul 2017 07:43
Location: Serbia

Can you prove that the Earth isn't a hollow sphere?

22 Jul 2017 04:52

Where the heck does the Sun set in a hollow Earth, anyway?  Is part of Earth getting vaporized every time I watch it go down?
Why would it set? It's not like we are living inside the Earth to know what is there. Your points are great as always. And maybe our surface is ticker and hollowness starts when we go deeper. We haven't dug so much in the past and present to really see.
But why we must see? It can be detected by sonars. But sonars can't go that deep, since they reflect waves as soon as they hit the bottom.
My points aren't so great. Because it's usually different from others believes. But this may ask some more questions.
Specs: Ram: 8gb | Vram: 1gb | Graphics card: AMD Radeon | Hard-drive: 1tb | Processor: AMD Athlon X4 750 Quad Core Processor | CPU: 3.40 GHz | OS: Win 10 and XP (lol) |
We use time just to orientate through space.
 
User avatar
HarbingerDawn
SE Team Member
SE Team Member
Posts: 694
Joined: 22 Aug 2016 15:11
Location: CT, USA
Contact:

Can you prove that the Earth isn't a hollow sphere?

22 Jul 2017 08:29

But why we must see? It can be detected by sonars. But sonars can't go that deep, since they reflect waves as soon as they hit the bottom.
We can study the interior of the planet by observing the propagation of seismic waves, as Watsisname mentioned. These observations are consistent with an interior consisting of several layers or material, with no hollow region.
Ryzen 7 3700X, 64 GB DDR4-3200 RAM, RTX 3090 24 GB VRAM
Posts on old forum: 8717

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests