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Gnargenox
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Planets with potentially breathable atmospheres

01 Apr 2017 17:10

A slow death by progressive Hyperoxia.

You've got 32.3% Partial Atmospheric pressure of O2 which is good.
The ATM of 36.8% (equal to 37287.6 Pascal) is like being at 25,000 altitude.
Your air temperature is -89.435C.

Oxygen toxicity must be minimized by keeping a partial pressure arterial oxygen of O2 less than 80 mm Hg of pressure AND the fraction of O2 you breathe in (inspired) below 40% to 50%. The first signs of Oxygen toxicity may include disorientation, respiratory problems, or myopia. Then you will experience irritation to the lungs, congestion and edema of the lungs. Soon seizures and convulsions with central nervous system toxicity (CNS) lead to death.

The human body has naturally occurring antioxidants to combat reactive Oxygen molecules in the atmosphere that we breathe in, but the protective antioxidant defenses can become depleted by abundant reactive Oxygen species (ROS), resulting in oxidation of the tissues and organs. Studies have shown oxygen higher than 21% can be damaging to biological tissues, damaging lipids, proteins, and nucleic acids. You've got 32.3%. Activated alveolar capillary endothelium is characterized by increased adhesiveness causing accumulation of cell populations such as neutrophils. Hyperpermeability of the pulmonary microvasculature causes flooding of the alveolus with plasma extravasations leading to pulmonary edema and abnormalities in the coagulation and fibrinolysis pathways promoting fibrin deposition.

Reduction of oxidation: A single-electron transfer converts molecular oxygen to the superoxide anion, creating an unstable molecule. The decomposition of hydrogen peroxide can be a source of the hydroxyl radical; this reaction requires both superoxide and hydrogen peroxide as precursors. These steps reduce oxygen to water by the addition of four electrons, yielding three reactive oxygen species: superoxide anion, hydrogen peroxide, and hydroxyl radical.

Fraction of inspired oxygen (FiO2) is the fraction or percentage of oxygen in the volume being measured, like a planet's atmosphere. Medical patients experiencing difficulty breathing are provided with oxygen-enriched air, which means a higher-than-atmospheric FiO2. Natural air includes 21% oxygen, which is equivalent to FiO2 of 0.21. Oxygen-enriched air has a higher FiO2 than 0.21; up to 1.00 which means 100% oxygen. FiO2 is typically maintained below 50% even with mechanical ventilation, to avoid oxygen toxicity. If a patient is wearing a nasal cannula or a simple face mask, each additional liter per minute of oxygen adds about 4 percentage points for the first 3 liters and only 3 percentage point for every liter thereafter to their FiO2 (for example, a patient with a nasal cannula with 4L/min of oxygen flow would have an FIO2 of 21% + (3 x 4%)+(1 x 3%) = 36%).

Exposure time, atmospheric pressure, and fraction of inspired O2 determine the cumulative O2 dose leading to toxicity. Oxygen is toxic to the lungs when high (>60%) and administered over extended exposure time (≥24 hours) at normal barometric pressure (1 atmospheres absolute (ATA)). This type of exposure is referred to as low pressure O2 poisoning, pulmonary toxicity, or the Lorraine Smith effect.

Toxicity also occurs when the ATA is high (1.6–4) and the high O2 exposure time is short. This type of exposure is referred to as high pressure O2 poisoning or the Paul Bert effect and is toxic to the central nervous system (CNS). Central nervous system toxicity results in seizures, followed by coma in most people within 30 to 60 minutes. Seizures often occur without warning and are likely to be lethal. Other symptoms include nausea, muscle twitching, dizziness, disturbances of vision, irritability, and disorientation.

PaO2/FiO2 ratio. The ratio of partial pressure arterial oxygen (in the blood stream) and fraction of inspired oxygen, sometimes called the Carrico index, is a comparison between the oxygen level in the blood and the oxygen concentration that is breathed. A PaO2/FiO2 ratio less than or equal to 200 is necessary for the diagnosis of acute respiratory distress syndrome. A PaO2/FiO2 ratio less than or equal to 250 is one of the minor criteria for severe community acquired pneumonia.

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So, we want to know if there is too much or too little oxygen in the air to survive on your planet.
Is there too much to cause hyperoxia? (when tissues and organs are exposed to an excess supply of oxygen)
Or is there too little to cause hypoxemia? (low oxygen in your blood) and causes hypoxia (low oxygen in your tissues) when your blood doesn't carry enough oxygen to your tissues.

All we need to know is how much oxygen is in your blood, not just how much is in the air. Or basically the number on the Carrico index.
We know the FIO2 on your planet, that is the same as the absolute atmospheric pressure of oxygen, or .878
Finding out the PaO2 or how much oxygen is in your blood on your planet at sea level:

Simple method:
Alveolar air (PaO2) is the oxygen exhaled minus the oxygen inhaled times the VD/VT all of which is divided by 1-VD/VT
Physiologic dead space over tidal volume (VD/VT) is the CO2 in your blood minus what you exhale divided by what you exhale
These are all partial pressures of oxygen in alveolar, expired, and inspired gas.
Abbreviated alveolar air equation.jpg
Abbreviated alveolar air equation.jpg (21.27 KiB) Viewed 772 times

Physiologic dead space over tidal volume.jpg
Physiologic dead space over tidal volume.jpg (21.54 KiB) Viewed 772 times


Detailed method:
Alveolar air (PaO2) is the fraction of inspired oxygen times the barometric pressure, not including pressure from water vapor
minus the partial pressure of alveolar CO2 times the fraction of inspired oxygen plus 1 minus fraction of inspired oxygen over the Respiratory quotient
alveolar air equation.jpg
alveolar air equation.jpg (21.72 KiB) Viewed 772 times


The Respiratory quotient is the partial pressure of alveolar CO2 times 1 minus the fraction of inspired oxygen all divided by O2 breathed in minus O2 breathed out minus the CO2 breathed out time the fraction of of inspired oxygen
Respiratory quotient.jpg
Respiratory quotient.jpg (22.94 KiB) Viewed 772 times


Now I will attempt that thing called Maths.
First, your planet is a dry desert. There is no water vapor. On Earth is normal .02302 ATM. Second we need to know barometric pressure (weight of the air) at sea level. That is simply 0.372876 bar or 37287.6 Pascal. Normal barometric pressure on Earth at sea level is 101325 Pascal. On your planet sea level is the same as 5857.60 meters above sea level on Earth.

This link has a calculator for finding the air pressure for any planet's atmosphere based on temperature and altitude.
Interplanetary Air Pressure at Altitude Calculator

This link gives us info on partial gas pressures normally inside the lungs and blood.
Human Physiology - Respiration

Alveoli (entering) CO2 is around 40 mm Hg (0.0526316 ATM) on Earth.
Since your planet's CO2 partial pressure is .0445, nearly the same as Earth's, I wont change it for this formula.
Alveolar (exiting) CO2 is around 45 mm Hg (0.0592105 ATM) Relatively high because the blood returning from the systemic circulation has picked up carbon dioxide.
Alveoli (entering) O2 is around 100 mm Hg (0.13157894 ATM) on Earth. On your planet it would be 0.20238 ATM at .323 partial
Alveolar (exiting) O2 is around 40 mm Hg (0.0526316 ATM)

Alveolar air (PaO2) oxygen in your blood is:
x = 0.878 * (0.372876 - 0) - 0.0592105 * (0.878 + [1 - 0.878 over R]
while R = 0.0592105 - (1 - 0.878) all over 0.20238 - 0.0526316 - (0.0592105 * .878)
so
x = 0.273896094653844 ATM or 208 mm Hg
That is double the recommended maximum amount for people using oxygen therapy for COPD

Normally PaO2, the percentage of oxygen in your blood, on Earth is 0.1052631 ATM or slightly greater than 80 mm Hg
That is double the recommended maximum amount for people using oxygen therapy for COPD

Using this calculator we get a Carrico index value of over 64,000 !
PaO2/FiO2 ratio calculator

While the partial pressure of oxygen is low because of the thin atmosphere 32.3%, most of it is oxygen 87.8%.
You would be getting way too much with each breath and it would be too saturated or rich, as they say.
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Or I could be completely wrong and have no clue what I just typed. Actually, I hope I am wrong lol
Either way, that planet you found is simply amazing. I am totally thrilled you found it. :)
Last edited by Gnargenox on 03 Apr 2017 13:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Planets with potentially breathable atmospheres

02 Apr 2017 03:28

That's pretty interesting. I never realized a ratio like that would be important.

Have you run these calculations on the planet in the second post of this thread? It has 86% O2 in the atmosphere, only 1.5% less than the planet I found. Would there be too much oxygen on that planet too? I didn't get very far even with a proper calculator and the equations you listed.  :lol:

Also, looking at the graph about the extremes of air pressure and oxygen concentration posted by Watsisname, both my planet and the planet in that post would be close to the bottom of the safe zone, closer to anoxia than hyperoxia. I might be mistaken though.
 
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Gnargenox
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Planets with potentially breathable atmospheres

02 Apr 2017 13:49

First I must say that your find is absolutely incredible! Amazing that it too is a cold desert like the first planet found, shown on page 1. I have been searching incessantly for months hoping to find something anywhere near close to that with complete failure. My hats off to you sir! I gave up after thinking the algorithms used by SE would not allow it to generate a planet with breathable atmospheres.

As far as calculations go, I will re-attempt this using numbers from Earth, as a gauge to see if I am located anywhere near the realm of reality. Then I can try the first planet, as you suggested.

This is the first time I've ever tried to understand human respiration. I had no idea the fraction of oxygen in the air was just as important as the pressure of oxygen in the air, much less the quantity and pressure of gases in our blood stream. I will also compare some of this to what NASA has done for their astronaut's life support system in the ISS and shuttle crafts, which I believe are well below 1 atm.

I want to understand the difference between the Lorraine Smith effect (low pressure, high fraction) and the Paul Bert effect (high pressure, low fraction) of oxygen toxicity. These two are both different from the effects of having too little oxygen.

I will attempt these re-calculations to include barometric pressure and water vapor pressures. I believe Vladimir has already provided barometric pressures in the Physical tab of the planet's info. I will check you planet's barometric pressure and use his numbers, since he is a genius and all. All calculations will be for sea level BUT will not take temperature into account, specifically the air temperature number also on the planet's info tabs.

As noted in my previous post, Baricity, or number of molecules of a gas in the air compared to the density inside human cerebrospinal fluid is necessary to know, to know if you will die or not. As I said, I will be keeping things at sea level with a constant temperature of 0° Celsius planet wide. Meaning barometric pressure will be equal to partial atmospheric pressure in all calculations now. I know that is extremely warm compared to your planet, but I suck at math. Otherwise I would need to solve this differential equation for an ideal gas at various temperatures:

p(y)=p(0)[1−(ky/T0)]^[2−g/(kR)]

[math]

I don't want to be anywhere other than sea level because then I would need to know molecular weight of the atmosphere at the various elevations. I will assume for ALL planets that it is the same as Earth's. I won't be taking into account the planet's size or its gravity either.

Ok, here goes... Holding my nose as I take this plunge.... This might take a month or two...... brb

edit: I might be able to take temperature AND elevation into account for barometric pressure with this calculator haha
The Barometric Formula

edit edit: One other thing I won't take into account is Fick's Law. Which is the net diffusion rate of a gas across a fluid membrane that is proportional to the difference in partial pressure, proportional to the area of the membrane and inversely proportional to the thickness of the alveoli membrane in the lungs. Combined with the diffusion rate determined from Graham's law (which takes molecular mass into account), this law provides the means for calculating exchange rates of gases across membranes by diffusion.
This is Dr Fick
fick.jpg
fick.jpg (15.3 KiB) Viewed 710 times

Its not that I want people to die, I just don't know how complicated this might get.
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Watsisname
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Planets with potentially breathable atmospheres

02 Apr 2017 20:57

Gnargenox wrote:
Source of the post Otherwise I would need to solve this differential equation for an ideal gas at various temperatures:

p(y)=p(0)[1−(ky/T0)]^[2−g/(kR)]

Depending on how gross it is, I might be able to help as far as the math goes (you understand way more on breathability than I do).  Do you think you can you walk through what the terms in that equation mean and where it comes from?  Unless I'm missing something it doesn't have the form of a differential equation, nor does it look like a solution to any common differential equations.  But if we can figure that part out and come up with some general formula maybe that could prove useful. :)
 
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Planets with potentially breathable atmospheres

03 Apr 2017 13:46

I can't even begin to say how appreciative I would be for a little help on the math part. Luckily it isn't necessary to pencil it all out since I found an online calculator for exactly that (Barometric Formula calculator). That formula quoted is for calculating the different pressures with changes in your elevation. This Pressure calculator page (Pressure Calculator) will tell me the pressure in mm Hg when I enter the ATM at sea level for Barometric pressure.

I do need a little help with the algebra of the Alveolar air equation using the Respiratory quotient, noted above as the detailed method, making sure I am using and transferring the correct units. Also I often get partial vs absolute pressures and the inhaled vs exhaled pressures mixed up in my head.

Another part of the Barometric Formula needs the molecular mass of the atmosphere. That is provided on the planet's info tab. I also need to include the temperature because that is key to knowing how many molecules are in the air, and therefore how much Oxygen can enter the blood stream. I have to do all that because the Barometric pressure is used in the Alveolar air equation.

I would rather stick to sea level pressures and not worry about the elevation somewhere else on the planet in question. For one, gases are all different weights, the higher up I go on Earth, the lower the fraction of Oxygen since Nitrogen is lighter than O2, all the while the partial pressures still remains the same. If we are on a planet that is a mix of Oxygen and say Argon or Xenon, both heavier than O2, the fraction of O2 will increase and partial pressures might change. I will not worry about the fact that these different mixtures of gases would also form layers on different planets with different gravity that could make sea level uninhabitable even if all the fractions and pressures of Oxygen were in safe ranges.

For example, a Helium/Oxygen mix would quickly become 100% Oxygen on the ground no matter what planet you were on. This is not to mention a Xenon/Oxygen mixture would knock you out nearly instantly, much like Nitrous Oxide does and breathing Argon/Oxygen mixtures is considered doping by the Olympic committee. On atmospheric scales these gases could possibly separate into layers with no O2 at sea level since Argon is about 25% times heavier. However, CO2 still mixes well in our own atmosphere even though it is about 50% heavier than the Nitrogen/Oxygen mixture which makes up the majority of our air. Nitrogen and Oxygen are very close in weight so they mix well. As you well know, plants still thrive in the mountains until it gets too cold. Water Vapor behaves differently in all these different mixes too. In gases that it can diffuse quickly in, like Helium, you would probably never develop clouds on that planet. However, I won't take any of this into account and I will leave elevation at zero in the Barometric pressure calculator.

The only other parts to the Alveolar air formula are the amounts of O2 entering and exiting the lungs as well as the CO2 exiting. If there is no CO2 on a planet I guess it won't matter. That is one thing I'm not positive about. We could use another abundant yet inert and non-toxic gas in its place or try the calculations without any Alveoli (entering) CO2. Not using anything is most likely not the correct way.

The variables are:
Fraction of Inspired Oxygen (first column number on the planet's info tab),
Alveoli (entering) O2 partial pressure (second column number on the planet's info tab),
Alveoli (entering) CO2 or another gas' partial pressure, (the next highest partial pressure of any gas on the list)
Barometric pressure, (calculated with online calculator)
Your elevation (for the Barometric pressure calculator, decided to be zero)
The air temperature (for the Barometric pressure calculator, provided on planet's info tab)
Average Molar Mass (for the Barometric pressure calculator, provided on planet's info tab)
and Water Vapor partial pressure. (either zero or the partial pressure if it is on the planet's info tab)

Thank you kind sir!
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Planets with potentially breathable atmospheres

03 Apr 2017 14:34

I am enjoying this thread as of late, lots of interesting discussion.
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Gnargenox
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Planets with potentially breathable atmospheres

04 Apr 2017 17:34

My attempt at using a spreadsheet to keep track of data for Earth and four other exoplanets to show blood oxygen content was a miserable failure. I think we need a blood-gas doctor to figure this stuff out. :?

I happened to find an Oceania with nice Oxygen content and on the thresholds of H2S and SO2 as a fourth example. The only thing I got was a few obviously bogus ratio numbers that just so happened to be close for Earth and this new planet I found. Shown in blue. I think what I came up with is numbers that show on the other planets the oxygen would be pulled from your blood and never actually get into it. Here is an interesting link  Blood Gas for Climbers on Mt Everest link that I should study lol, oh and that planet I found with nice partial pressures.
Failure data.jpg

failure.jpg

scr03209.jpg
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Planets with potentially breathable atmospheres

05 Apr 2017 01:11

Gnargenox, I'll need to find time to sit down for a while to really go through the alveolar equation, but at least it looks dimensionally consistent, with R being dimensionless.  I don't understand it well enough yet to say it's being applied correctly or if there's just a computational error or whatnot, but in the meantime keep at it.  We'll figure it out. :)

I also think the effect of altitude isn't as complicated as you're making it out to be.  In addition to using online calculators, we can also use a simple formula where the pressure with height is an exponential.  Basically this comes from solving the differential equation dP/dz = ρz, after replacing the density ρ with MP/RT from the ideal gas law.  Then we get

Image

where  Image  is the "scale height" of the atmosphere.  For every increase in altitude by the scale height, the pressure drops by another factor of e.

For Earth, the scale height is about 8km. 

Sadly, SE does not display the scale height, but we can compute it for procedural planets from the info it does provide:
  
R is the gas constant (8.314 joules per Kelvin per mole), 
T is the mean temperature of the atmosphere (we can just use the surface temperature and be pretty much ok), 
M is the mean molar mass of the atmosphere (SE displays this in the atmo tab), 
and g is the acceleration due to gravity.

The only caution here is to make sure to be dimensionally consistent, but Wolfram Alpha can take care of that very easily.

Furthermore -- and this is the really nice part -- you do not need to worry about changing gas mixture with altitude!  Not only is g essentially constant through the range of altitudes we are interested in, but so is M!  This is because turbulent mixing keeps the atmosphere homogeneous up to a very high altitude.  On Earth, the mixture is constant (except for water vapor, since it condenses and precipitates) all the way up to about 100km -- this is called the "homosphere".  Above that, molecular diffusion takes over, so that the heavier molecules finally do settle out and the lighter molecules become more prevalent with increasing height.

Sorry I don't have more to go on for now than that, but hopefully this may at least help somewhat. :)
 
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Planets with potentially breathable atmospheres

05 Apr 2017 09:34

Sadly, every habitable planet i've discovered has either been too warm, too cold, Crushing gravity, Crushing atmosphere or the opposite. On life supporting planets. At least human life is a bit picky it seems.
 
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Planets with potentially breathable atmospheres

05 Apr 2017 09:53

SpaaaaaaceMouse wrote:
Source of the post Sadly, every habitable planet i've discovered has either been too warm, too cold, Crushing gravity, Crushing atmosphere or the opposite.

And don't forget the SO2 ;)
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Planets with potentially breathable atmospheres

05 Apr 2017 10:23

Yeah. That was the abbreviated last of things that would kill you. Many unfriendly atmospheric compositions too.
*edit*
Let's not forget that any planet that supports life would likely be full of viruses / bacteria or something similar that or bodies would have 0 resistance to.
 
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Planets with potentially breathable atmospheres

08 Apr 2017 22:10

Funny, on nearly the same day it is announced they found a real Earth-sized exoplanet with an atmosphere, I FINALLY find a planet that won't kill you in less than an hour! Ok, the fraction of inspired O2 is over the medically suggested rate of 60%, for oxygen therapy users to stay out of Oxygen toxicity ranges, but you can probably acclimate, and you'll need to take alot of anti-oxidant pills, grape juice might not cut it alone. CO2 is also adaptable. SO2 is actually at levels low enough you can run and skip and play for over an hour, and get to actually smoke that long awaited for cigarette, without leaving a corpse on the surface of the planet!! WOO-HOO! H2S barely leaves a hint of an odor in the air. Ok crew, you may leave the air-lock without breathing protection, but you might want to wear a lead lined sweater. Don't smoke too many cigarettes, don't feed the aliens and be ready to leave at 01:00 hours for the next star system!
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Planets with potentially breathable atmospheres

08 Apr 2017 22:11

Wonderful find!  Congrats! :)
 
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09 Apr 2017 06:06

That's a nice find, inside a beautiful nebula as well. Temperature is looking good!
 
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Planets with potentially breathable atmospheres

09 Apr 2017 07:30

SpaaaaaaceMouse wrote:
Source of the post Let's not forget that any planet that supports life would likely be full of viruses / bacteria or something similar that or bodies would have 0 resistance to.

True, although there is a significant probability that humans work so differently from whatever the pathogens normally infect that it can't affect humans.Of course, the difference could also mean that the pathogen tries to get its host to be a little sick, and ends up being very lethal to whatever species it got into.
But for example most if not all of the microbes that create spots on vegetables and fruits are harmless to us, because plants immune systems are very different from human immune systems.
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