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XBrain130
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02 Dec 2017 11:15

Mouthwash wrote:
Source of the post "I conclude therefore that this star [supernova] is not some kind of comet or a fiery meteor, but that it is a star shining in the firmament itself - one that has never previously been seen before our time, in any age since the beginning of the world."
- Tycho Brahe

I thought the point of quotes is being phylosophical and/or inspirational, but this one is merely stating a finding.
Mouthwash wrote:
Source of the post (Nothing from Sagan, he's an overrated blowhard.)

Do you have a rudeness quota to fulfill for every post?
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02 Dec 2017 11:32

XBrain130 wrote:
Mouthwash wrote:
Source of the post "I conclude therefore that this star [supernova] is not some kind of comet or a fiery meteor, but that it is a star shining in the firmament itself - one that has never previously been seen before our time, in any age since the beginning of the world."
- Tycho Brahe

I thought the point of quotes is being phylosophical and/or inspirational, but this one is merely stating a finding.
Mouthwash wrote:
Source of the post (Nothing from Sagan, he's an overrated blowhard.)

Do you have a rudeness quota to fulfill for every post?

I don't think all quotes have pontificate on the nature of science or the universe. Tycho's quote reflects an actual moment of discovery - of a spectacular natural phenomenon being recorded. That's pretty cool, right?

And I'm sorry but having Sagan rubbed in my face as a god of science everywhere I go is infuriating.
 
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02 Dec 2017 11:57

If you read previous posts, you know that Sagan has been covered enough.

From OP:

SpaceEngineer wrote:
Source of the post  It's important to find an 'official' translations

The reason is that not so famous quotes are very difficult to translate in other languages, unless we can use those from famous papers and works, which are very likely translated by professional translators and can be much easily recovered in a public library, for example.
As you can guess I'm not a professional translator as well as the majority of contributors. Translating quotes without a local reference can lead, and indeed it leads, to less than satisfactory results. Personally I hate it.
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02 Dec 2017 13:04

Mouthwash wrote:
Source of the post And I'm sorry but having Sagan rubbed in my face as a god of science everywhere I go is infuriating.

While I think Sagan was pretty accurate on science, even in retrospect after decades of new discoveries, I think that the most remarkable about Sagan was not the scientist Sagan, but the orator Sagan.  His language was very polished and his oratory skills matched those of the great orators of antiquity.  That makes him very quotable.
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02 Dec 2017 13:37

Mouthwash wrote:
Source of the post Nothing from Sagan, he's an overrated blowhard.

He is neither overrated nor a blowhard.

Mouthwash wrote:
Source of the post having Sagan rubbed in my face as a god of science everywhere I go is infuriating

It is unfortunate that you cannot appreciate what an incredible scientist and science communicator he was, and I don't think that anyone here would try to present him as a "god of science". I agree that we should definitely have quotes from a diverse array of individuals, not just Sagan, but your attitude towards him is unwarranted.
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02 Dec 2017 22:00

"The reason is that not so famous quotes are very difficult to translate in other languages, unless we can use those from famous papers and works, which are very likely translated by professional translators and can be much easily recovered in a public library, for example.

As you can guess I'm not a professional translator as well as the majority of contributors. Translating quotes without a local reference can lead, and indeed it leads, to less than satisfactory results. Personally I hate it."


What? There are plenty of people who have complete fluency in two languages. My own (American-born) mother speaks perfect Hebrew, and my dad has a Mexican-born friend who speaks perfect English. They clearly aren't hard to find, probably much less so on the internet.

"While I think Sagan was pretty accurate on science, even in retrospect after decades of new discoveries, I think that the most remarkable about Sagan was not the scientist Sagan, but the orator Sagan.  His language was very polished and his oratory skills matched those of the great orators of antiquity.  That makes him very quotable."

"It is unfortunate that you cannot appreciate what an incredible scientist and science communicator he was, and I don't think that anyone here would try to present him as a "god of science". I agree that we should definitely have quotes from a diverse array of individuals, not just Sagan, but your attitude towards him is unwarranted."


I can't comment on his actual scientific work, but as a science communicator and philosopher I strongly dislike him. This is not the thread for this argument, however.

I would still like to note that Space Engine will not be used by the average person - it will be used by a subset of the population that is already very interested in science, technology, and cosmology. Those people will have heard every famous Sagan quote already, many times, and stuff like "science is a way of thinking more than a body of knowledge" is already be so obvious as to hardly be worth mentioning. Poetic or obscure quotes stand a better chance of being intriguing. Just my opinion.
 
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02 Dec 2017 23:49

How about very old quotes about the universe, that still roughly hold?  For instance [Pliny, Natural History, II.85]
Posidonius holds that mists and winds and clouds reach to a height not less than 5 miles from the earth, but that from that point the air is clear and liquid and perfectly luminous, but that the distance between the cloudy air and the moon is 250,000 miles


Original: Posīdōnius nōn minus quadrāgintā stadiōrum ā terrā altitūdinem esse in quam nūbila ac uentī nūbēsque perueniant, inde pūrum liquidumque et inperturbātae lūcis āera, sed ā turbidō ad lūnam uīciēns centum mīlia stadiōrum

Or shorter: "The distance between the cloudy air and the moon is 250,000 miles" and attributed to Posidonius (1st century BC).
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03 Dec 2017 04:32

Mouthwash wrote:
Source of the post I would still like to note that Space Engine will not be used by the average person - it will be used by a subset of the population that is already very interested in science, technology, and cosmology. Those people will have heard every famous Sagan quote already, many times

The average SE user these days is in their mid teens, and many of them have a limited understanding of science/astronomy. Additionally, SE has been used in classroom environments for teaching young students about space, and hopefully this usage will only grow in the future. One of the great things about SE is its potential for being a great educational tool, and assuming that all of its users already know everything is detrimental to that.

Mouthwash wrote:
Source of the post stuff like "science is a way of thinking more than a body of knowledge" is already be so obvious as to hardly be worth mentioning

The value of a quote is largely independent of its ubiquity. To use your example, "science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge" is a very important point that the vast majority of people are ignorant of, and absolutely deserves as much circulation as it can get.

Mouthwash wrote:
Source of the post I can't comment on his actual scientific work, but as a science communicator and philosopher I strongly dislike him. This is not the thread for this argument, however.

I created a relevant thread here where we can talk about this more.
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Mouthwash
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03 Dec 2017 05:12

HarbingerDawn wrote:
Mouthwash wrote:
Source of the post I would still like to note that Space Engine will not be used by the average person - it will be used by a subset of the population that is already very interested in science, technology, and cosmology. Those people will have heard every famous Sagan quote already, many times

The average SE user these days is in their mid teens, and many of them have a limited understanding of science/astronomy. Additionally, SE has been used in classroom environments for teaching young students about space, and hopefully this usage will only grow in the future. One of the great things about SE is its potential for being a great educational tool, and assuming that all of its users already know everything is detrimental to that.

Mouthwash wrote:
Source of the post stuff like "science is a way of thinking more than a body of knowledge" is already be so obvious as to hardly be worth mentioning

The value of a quote is largely independent of its ubiquity. To use your example, "science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge" is a very important point that the vast majority of people are ignorant of, and absolutely deserves as much circulation as it can get.

Hmm, okay, so the quote might have some value. But there's also value in using less abstract quotes. That's one of the things I loved about Europa Barbarorum - the loading screen had all sorts of obscure quotes that I otherwise would never have heard. For instance:

"No commander has ever adopted a plan apparently more reckless, but actually more sure of success, than this of mine. I am leading you to certain victory."

Isn't that more intriguing than some aimless theorizing about warfare by Greek (or modern) historians? A real Roman general said that. It made me want to find out why he said it and what he was doing at the time. And there's this gem:

Hannibal, asked by Antiochus if his richly ornamented army was enough to defeat the Romans at Magnesia, ca. 189BC
"Indeed they will be more than enough, even though the Romans are the greediest nation on earth!"
 
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03 Dec 2017 06:14

Mouthwash wrote:
Source of the post What? There are plenty of people who have complete fluency in two languages. My own (American-born) mother speaks perfect Hebrew, and my dad has a Mexican-born friend who speaks perfect English. They clearly aren't hard to find, probably much less so on the internet.

Maybe I expressed myself poorly. Let me put it this way: If they are translating foreign books for a living, then they are relevant in my point of view about quoting books. Otherwise, they are surely fluent, but they can't compare to experienced translators who very often link their professional life to specific foreign authors.
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03 Dec 2017 06:19

Mosfet wrote:
Mouthwash wrote:
Source of the post What? There are plenty of people who have complete fluency in two languages. My own (American-born) mother speaks perfect Hebrew, and my dad has a Mexican-born friend who speaks perfect English. They clearly aren't hard to find, probably much less so on the internet.

Maybe I expressed myself poorly. Let me put it this way: If they are translating foreign books for a living, then they are relevant in my point of view about quoting books. Otherwise, they are surely fluent, but they can't compare to experienced translators who very often link their professional life to specific foreign authors.

We're talking about 20-40 words. How much mangling could there be?

Also, any foreign language speaker can track down the same quote in their language on Google.
 
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03 Dec 2017 07:12

Mouthwash wrote:
Source of the post Also, any foreign language speaker can track down the same quote in their language on Google.

Unfortunately, it's not true, and this is the point.

Mouthwash wrote:
Source of the post How much mangling could there be?

You don't have idea :)



Edit:

This reminds me an Italian classic of literature:

IT:
E quindi uscimmo a riveder le stelle. - Dante Alighieri

FR:
et nous pûmes sortir et revoir les étoiles.

FR:
et de là sortant, nous revîmes les étoiles.

EN:
that we emerged, to see-once more-the stars.

EN:
thence we came out, and saw again the stars.

DE:
Und traten vor zum Wiedersehn der Sterne.

DE:
Dann traten wir hinaus und sahn die Sterne.
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Marko S.
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03 Dec 2017 09:16

Quotes feature might be gone in one of the next version since it works only for English localization. I am not saying for sure, but looks like font (or whatever it is) is not supported at loading screen for Cyrillic and maybe for some other writings. I asked Doc some time ago if there is any way to fix that, but he responded that it may never be fixed, but added because people asked. And so that's why it might be gone.
I personally think that this feature is cool to have, but it doesn't really matter how others are going to translate it. It's not that hard to translate one quote even if an official translation doesn't exist. 
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Mouthwash
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03 Dec 2017 10:24

"Unfortunately, it's not true, and this is the point."

How is it not true? Seems self evident.

"You don't have idea :)




Edit:

This reminds me an Italian classic of literature:

IT:
E quindi uscimmo a riveder le stelle. - Dante Alighieri

FR:
et nous pûmes sortir et revoir les étoiles.

FR:
et de là sortant, nous revîmes les étoiles.

EN:
that we emerged, to see-once more-the stars.

EN:
thence we came out, and saw again the stars.

DE:
Und traten vor zum Wiedersehn der Sterne.

DE:
Dann traten wir hinaus und sahn die Sterne."


And you think professional translators will somehow eliminate the inherent ambiguities between languages?
 
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03 Dec 2017 17:58

Mouthwash wrote:
Source of the post How is it not true? Seems self evident.

Because I actually tried, for the Italian translation.
The fact is, due to cultural and societal differences, with different languages there seems to be different preferred quotes, even from the same author. Add to this that even after tens of years of digital data, english language is still the lingua franca of the net, and you'll find that's very hard to google for foreign translations of less known quotes. You may have a chance if you know from which book it comes from, but then again, that information is not usually passed along with the quote and a translated book may not exist at all.
Hence you have to rely on your own translation, which maybe is fine, mind you, just perhaps not the best.

Mouthwash wrote:
Source of the post And you think professional translators will somehow eliminate the inherent ambiguities between languages?

Not at all.
I just wanted to publish a quote, that's all.
As it happens, for those who don't know, it's one of the most famous quotes of the entire Italian literature, the last verse of the first book of the Divine Comedy.
I googled for translations in three foreign languages. Of course different translators made different stylistic choices, no problem with that, yet I've been able to find only two translations per language in half an hour. One of them just because the no more existing domain was cloned under archive.org.
For other authors, I've not been so lucky.

Anyway, I'm not saying I'm against personal translations, only that if you all want to cite less known works, try to add book references as well. After all it's customary in citations.
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