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SpaceEngineer
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New planet classification

31 Jul 2017 03:02

Frostbreath, maybe "superhot" and "supercold"?
 
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HarbingerDawn
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New planet classification

31 Jul 2017 06:18

SpaceEngineer wrote:
Source of the post maybe "superhot" and "supercold"?

To a native speaker, that sounds pretty dumb. It sounds like something a kid would say who didn't know a better way to say it. Torrid and frigid are still the best terms IMO. Torrid is an uncommon but not unknown term, and frigid is a very common term. People will be able to understand it. If the literal translations of these words are problematic, use synonyms. Translations don't have to be exact if the exact translations cause problems.
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SpaceEngineer
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31 Jul 2017 09:13

Oh, I meant Dutch analogs of "superhot" and "supercold".

And yes, you mat translate term literally. This is what I did for Russian: chosen a row of words which good describes the temperature scale, from extremely hot to very cold.
 
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31 Jul 2017 09:39

Ok, sorry :)
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31 Jul 2017 10:56

SpaceEngineer wrote:
Oh, I meant Dutch analogs of "superhot" and "supercold".

And yes, you mat translate term literally. This is what I did for Russian: chosen a row of words which good describes the temperature scale, from extremely hot to very cold.

No, not necessarily that. Very hot would translate to "zeer heet" or "extreem heet", which is perfectly fine. "superheet" (=literally superhot in Dutch) sounds a little too simplistic for me. What I'm basically suggesting is trying to use as much more commonly known terms in all languages, not just Dutch, so you'll have the widest possible audience. :D
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styrax
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New planet classification

06 Aug 2017 13:28

Although it is now not possible to translate SE into Chinese at this moment, I think it would still be good to offer some opinions from the perspective of Chinese so that the translation will be smooth once it is possible. Moreover, Chinese is not an Indo-European language while all the languages discussed in this thread are.

First of all, there is no space among Chinese words. But I do not see this is a problem, since you can add commas among the words, it will be as easy to remove all the spaces as well.

I think the most tricky part of the translation into Chinese is that many planet classes in Chinese should be ended with the type of the astronomical body - a planet, a dwarf planet, or a moon. For example, terra is translated as 类地行星/lèidì xíngxīng (lit. Earth-like planet) for planets, but 类地卫星/lèidì wèixīng (lit. Earth-like moon) for moons. Preferably, a terran dwarf planet should be translated as 类地矮行星/lèidì ǎixíngxīng (lit. Earth-like dwarf planet). While it may be not quite problematic to call a dwarf planet as a "planet," it will be rather awkward to call a moon "planet." It is understandable, but just awkward. As far as I know, in Japanese planet classes work in a similar way. Furthermore, It is not possible to call an "Earth-like moon" simply as an "Earth-like" because you need a noun to conclude the phrase just as in Russian as SpaceEngineer argued. To circumvent this issue, one may try to call all the terra - no matter planets, dwarf planets, or moons - as 星/xīng (lit. star), as a planet is a 行星/xíngxīng (lit. moving star), and a natural satellite is a 卫星/wèixīng (lit. defending star). But it is still unnatural and in this way, you lose the difference between a planet and a real star, which makes it tricky o distinguish a carbon star and a carbon planet. If we want to prevent such problem after the Chinese translation becomes possible, I think it is best to do something now. We could store a latent variable to indicate whether the astronomical body is a planet or a moon in the variable for the planet class, and conceal it for all the Indo-European languages where it is not necessary. Once the Chinese and Japanese translations become possible, the translator can immediately make use of this latent indicator.

Concerning the dimensions of classes to be shown, I prefer showing volatiles classes than surface classes from the perspective of a Chinese speaker, because it is much easier to translate. Surface classes are difficult to translate because words do not inflect and morphemes are granulated in Chinese, so a carbid carbonia will be a 碳碳行星/tàn tàn xíngxīng (lit. carbon carbon planet), which sounds awkward. Even worse, a carbid aquaria might even become 碳水质行星/tàn shuǐ xíngxīng (lit. carbon water-ish planet), which can be easily misunderstood as a  "carbohydrate planet" in Chinese! (By the way, I feel aquaria is perhaps the most difficult one to translate, because in Chinese there is no distinction between the scientific Greek/Latin morphemes such as "aqua" and daily morphemes such as "water.") If one really wants to make the surface classes clear, the translation would inevitably become too wordy. For example, a a carbid carbonia can be translated as a 碳基岩碳行星/tàn jīyán tàn xíngxīng (lit. carbon bedrock carbon planet), which is not nice, either. But volatiles classes are much easier to translate.

Finally, I think there also have to be some adjustments of word orders in Chinese. But this should not be problematic since word order can already be changed.

A few examples for planet classes in Chinese in my mind:

Venus - 热类地火山行星 lit. hot Earth-like volcano planet
Earth - 显生水海温类地火山行星 lit. life-manifest water sea temperate Earth-like volcano planet
Mars - 二氧化碳冰川凉类地行星 lit. carbon dioxide glacier cool Earth-like planet
Io - 岩浆湖冷亚类地火山卫星 lit. magma lake cold sub- Earth-like volcano moon
Titan - 烃湖冻水质卫星 lit. hydrocarbon lake frozen water-ish moon
55 Cancri e - 潮汐锁定的岩浆海焦超碳行星 lit. tidally locked magma sea scorched super- carbon planet
Proxima b - 潮汐锁定的水冰川凉类地行星 lit. tidally locked water glacier cool Earth-like planet

Many of them still feel not right but the Chinese translation itself is something hypothetical in the first place, so we still have plenty of time o think about a nice translation. For now, I think it is just important to put the planet/dwarf planet/moon variable into the codes for planet classes for potential Chinese translation.
 
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New planet classification

07 Aug 2017 03:14

styrax, thanks for info!
So, in Chinese it is not possible to "invent" a word, like we do for "terra", "carbonia" etc? These words does not exist in some languages, but it's fairly easy to construct them and use as a class names.
 
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12 Aug 2017 21:35

Just before you put in the new planet class I just thought of of something for your temperature Delma, if torrid is bad in Russian why not replace it with hellish
 
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13 Aug 2017 03:23

catvanbrian wrote:
Source of the post  if torrid is bad in Russian why not replace it with hellish

It is even worse :)
 
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ePayload
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New planet classification

13 Aug 2017 13:57

[ru on]
Вот, SpaceEngineer о чем я и говорил (поддекстом): все эти феррии, акварии, карбонии и torridы сложнопереводимы, потому что это относительно новые слова... Надо простые слова (world, selena, ice, terra). И они были в старой классификации. Только Океанида\Oceania относительно новое слово, но кстати наверно откуда-то Вы его взяли?..
[ru off] : )
 
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New planet classification

15 Aug 2017 15:35

I have a few suggestions for the Terra classification. A Terra should be a world in-which water exists in all 3 phases upon a non-water subsurface. I would also like to propose a new class called Gaia which means humans can actually survive on its surface. A modification to Desert; low rainfall and no ice (2 phases of water meaning lakes are possible), with the addition of Tundra; same as desert but the other side of the scale (yes I know Desert is rainfall not temperature but I feel this makes things more specific) no steam instead of no ice. The prefix Sub, which means lesser fits the root, and Super which takes the root to an extreme (e.g. Sub-Gaia, can support human life but not without extra light weight resources like gas masks or filters. Super-Gaia, better than Earth at this job.) Minor/Major (supersedes sub and super) which has to do with mass and surface gravity. Barren, an attribute to Terras like Gaias, which means that liquid water can be supported but is non existent. Thats all I am going to suggest because I know you guys are making your own system and probably won't want to throw all of it away for some random person's system so I'll just leave what I have here for Terras as I feel that the class and similar classes like it are over simplified and could give more information without making the system over descriptive (more than two words in the class, including prefix and suffix, not including temperature).  :)
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catvanbrian
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New planet classification

15 Aug 2017 20:29

One more thing is it possible to find body's made of biological molecules
 
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New planet classification

16 Aug 2017 20:06

That depends on whether or not you consider tholins to be biological molecules, because whenever you see red or brown colors on an ice world, that's usually what you're looking at.
 
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New planet classification

16 Aug 2017 21:23

Both look like a tag list. Sorry, but its true. It would be a nice feature for searches. If only to display onscreen as descriptive class name, I kind of like the current system better because it is simpler. To seriously improve on the old system, I think you need something that gives non automated names to classes (yes, manually naming all the classes) and/or something that can be expanded by you guys or via modding over time without the need to make a completely new system every time you want to add stuff or change some things.

To do this, I would draw a tree based on what the different objects have in common and branching off where there are differences to help visualize everything. This way, objects are checked only for relevant criteria. Asteroids do not have atmospheres and gas giants do not have volcanoes. With a tree, you can also keep it simple at first. At any time in the future, you can edit the tree and add a node somewhere to add some classes pretty much without redoing anything else. You could even reroute some nodes to whole different sets of branches and thus naming schemes and have an arbitrary number of systems and sub systems if you so desire. Then, you can give nice short descriptive names to the ends of all the branches like "Gas planet", "gas giant","Silicate moonlet", "hot jupiter", "Large silicate asteroid". Eventually as you expand this, things like "Eyeball earth".

Anyways, this is just a suggestion by someone who will not have the task to code this. Honestly, I am quite happy with the current system in 1.8.0 and the names/classes given are enough that I have a good idea what to expect when I approach the selected object. Picking between Space engineer's system or Harbinger Dawn's system, I think both do pretty much the same thing.
 
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New planet classification

17 Aug 2017 13:09

Here is my take on the classification system. Etymologies of words in English have always interested in me, so hopefully I can be of use to you. NOTE: I DON'T SPEAK ANY OTHER LANGUAGES, so I am not aware of any translation issues. Most of this is from Google, Wikipedia, or Dictionary.com

Bulk: terra - aquaria - carbonia - ferria - neptune - jupiter - chthonia - asteroid

I was thinking that terra could be changed to something like terrestrial or telluric, but as said before, it would change the parallel syntax that should be maintained in the classification system (adjective classes describing the noun bulk). Either way, both terrestrial and telluric are derived from Latin words for Earth (Terra and Tellus). The aquaria class technically could also be called panthalassia (derived from the name of the superocean Panthalassa c. 250 Ma; the word itself is Greek and literally translates to "all ocean") but aquaria is definitely simpler and easier to understand/recognize for most people. There's nothing wrong with carbonia or ferria, as they are both derived from their Latin roots (carbo, coal; ferrum, iron).  Neptune and jupiter are tricky! There is no widespread alternate name for the ice giant or gas giant class, and they are both two words. Jovian and Neptunian (derived terms, Jove being another name of mythological Jupiter) are adjectives and will not work. I think Jovia and Neptunia would be the best class names because they are both nouns and follow the -a pattern that most of the bulk classes have. They are also, as stated in the original post, the established exoplanet terms "Jupiters" and "Neptunes" (e.g. Hot Jupiters and Hot Neptunes) and will eliminate confusion about hot ice giants. Chthonia sounds good. Although chthonia is derived from Greek, it is already an established name of the hypothetical celestial object. Thus, it should not be changed for simplicity's sake. Asteroid breaks the -a pattern, but because it is obviously an established name of a celestial object class, it should be a suitable name for the class in Space Engine.

Size - mega - super - (no prefix) - sub - mini - micro

These prefixes have different orgins. However, some prefixes have already been adopted in class names of some celestial objects. For example, super- is a loanword from Latin and is used in "Super-Earth", but mini- is simply adopted by shortening the word miniature, which is from Italian miniatura, a type of small painting, and is used in "Mini-Neptune". Taking these non uniformities into account, a ranking system based on what has already been somewhat established in astronomy would be better. I think mega-, super-, and sub- are suitable because they are already established in the giant "Mega-Earth", Super-Earth class, and Sub-Earth class. Mini- is a interesting because a Mini-Neptune is still 10 M. It's suitable because it's been established as a class already. Micro- is also suitable because it is derived from Greek meaning small and is often used in cases where it means abnormally small (e.g. microcephaly).

Temperature - scorched/torrid - hot - warm - temperate - cool - cold - frozen/cryogenic/frigid

I think torrid and frigid are very good because they are opposite pairs. Warm is the opposite of cold. Hot is the opposite of cool. Torrid is the (near) opposite of frigid. They are also strong words that express their respective temperatures adequately. However, if, because of translation reasons, these words are undesirable, scorched and frozen certainly sound fine.

Atmospheric Pressure - airless - infrabaric - hypobaric - mesobaric - hyperbaric - ultrabaric

Airless is different from the -baric pattern, but I don't think there is any synonym of airless that is suitable for a celestial body devoid of an atmosphere. Meso- is fine as it means middle. I was thinking about normobaric, but I think that strictly applies to a pressure of 1 atm. Personally, I feel that ultrabaric should be suprabaric because supra- seems to be a better antonym of infra-. Don't get me wrong, ultra- is interchangeable, but infra- means "below", supra- means "above", and ultra- means "beyond". This is very pedantic but the opposite of below is above, not beyond. That's why I think suprabaric is a better is more suitable. Hypo- and hyper- are fine; they are exact opposites.

Atmosphere Breathability - toxic - unbreathable - breathable - bio-hazardous

I don't think there needs to be a hyphen between biohazardous. I'm not sure what the difference between toxic and biohazardous would be, but it sounds very difficult to measure (you would need to know the toxicity of every gas in the atmosphere. Perhaps an additional class called "training required" but that would be exceedingly difficult to categorize. 

Additional Info - tidally-locked - volcanic - cryovolcanic - cometary - inhabited

Nothing wrong here! Sounds good. To solve the double tag problem, perhaps some tags could be a different color so that they stand out. The same could be done but with bolding or italicizing.

Volatiles Composition - pryo - thermo - (none) - hypo - cryo

I think thermo- and hypo- should be omitted because I can't think of a warm but not hot or cool but not cold volatile.

Volatiles Amount - desertic/arid - laky - marine - oceanic - superoceanic - glacial

As someone said earlier, xeric is the perfect word for desertic. (I learned a new word today!) Other than that, the other words seem to be fine.

Surface Class - metallic - rocky - carbid - icy - watery

I am not sure if carbid is a word, but I don't know any words that mean "made of carbon". Maybe someone could help me with that. Aqueous is a better word for watery in my opinion. Then again, you could consider any ocean of any liquid as aqueous whereas watery usually pertains to just water.

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