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HarbingerDawn
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02 May 2017 15:12

ZackG wrote:
Source of the post Get rid of that sack of ***.

That not a constructive way to voice your opinion, and it also happens to be against the forum rules.

ZackG wrote:
Source of the post I dont care.

Very non-constructive.

ZackG wrote:
Source of the post OK fine. you know what I think of BIll Mahar?
... ... ...

Other people in this thread seem to be trying to discuss a topic. You derailed that topic because someone posted a video where the topic was discussed, but you disliked someone in the video, so instead of addressing the topic, you proceeded to attack that person, derail the thread, and accuse most of the people in the developed world - including, I would wager, most of the adults on this forum - of having a "mental disease".

If casting aspersions and making generalizations and irrelevant comments is what you like to do online, then you should probably find a different forum to do it in.
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02 May 2017 17:48

ZackG wrote:

Look, if you have anything else to say, I'd love to hear it, but we should continue this discussion in the Totally off-topic thread. I'm always looking for new perspectives. (Right now I'm fairly liberal, but I'd love to hear why you think our policies are flawed)
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02 May 2017 19:02

HarbingerDawn wrote:
ZackG wrote:
Source of the post Get rid of that sack of ***.

That not a constructive way to voice your opinion, and it also happens to be against the forum rules.

ZackG wrote:
Source of the post I dont care.

Very non-constructive.

ZackG wrote:
Source of the post OK fine. you know what I think of BIll Mahar?
... ... ...

Other people in this thread seem to be trying to discuss a topic. You derailed that topic because someone posted a video where the topic was discussed, but you disliked someone in the video, so instead of addressing the topic, you proceeded to attack that person, derail the thread, and accuse most of the people in the developed world - including, I would wager, most of the adults on this forum - of having a "mental disease".

If casting aspersions and making generalizations and irrelevant comments is what you like to do online, then you should probably find a different forum to do it in.

Ill discuss this with you on PM
 
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03 May 2017 01:56

werdnaforever wrote:
Source of the post His main point is important.


Actually he had no point, he's a comedian. Even if that was his real opinion it is pretty stupid.

werdnaforever wrote:
Source of the post (and as far as I'm concerned we shouldn't take it for granted that future technologies will make everything OK).


We shouldn't take it for granted that it won't either. Developing technologies for habitats in space and on Mars though would guide tech in the right direction, doing nothing means we learn nothing and nothing changes.

werdnaforever wrote:
Source of the post But no, lets whine and call it dumb because we can't handle sarcasm.


It doesn't belong in this thread then, even if it is an off topic thread. If you want to post comedians and sarcastic videos, share them in the off topic thread. Posting that video here as if it has any real valid criticism on Mars colonization is a silly thing to do.

werdnaforever wrote:
Source of the post Besides, it's space colonies we should be focused on, not Martian surface colonies. We need significant infrastructure in space to become a multi-planet species, not a few domes on the surface of Mars.


Why not both?
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03 May 2017 07:58

DoctorOfSpace wrote:
Actually he had no point, he's a comedian. Even if that was his real opinion it is pretty stupid.

The fact that he's a comedian or being sarcastic doesn't invalidate his point.

DoctorOfSpace wrote:
We shouldn't take it for granted that it won't either.

Well, sure... but if we put people on Mars, they're absolutely screwed if it doesn't. Like it or not, I don't think we can seriously talk about long-term colonization unless we are prepared to solve the low-gravity issue. We don't have the bio-tech to do so right now and it remains to be seen if we will in 2050, but we can't prepare for technology we don't even know is possible. There's a difference between being bold pioneers and being irresponsible.

A failed, dying Mars colony may not drive everyone away from the idea of space exploration; it may make some people more eager to try and do it again, in a better way, but regardless there are going to be some serious negative cultural repercussions which are going to do more harm then good.

Also, using educated, highly trained, cream of the crop astronauts as human guinea pigs is one thing, but the more people we put in space the bigger responsibility we have as a species to ensure their safety. People who sign up to be the first astronauts on Mars may be well aware of the risks, but children born on Mars (and it's inevitable) will not have the opportunity to make that choice. They will be born into a world which will prevent their bodies from developing properly and we are not prepared to guarantee their safety. CISPR and other biotechnologies are in their infancy; we don't know if they will enable these kids to live healthy lives. It may not be possible for them to return to Earth if their bodies are irreparably damaged. The human rights issue here cannot be ignored.

DoctorOfSpace wrote:
It doesn't belong in this thread then, even if it is an off topic thread.  If you want to post comedians and sarcastic videos, share them in the off topic thread.  Posting that video here as if it has any real valid criticism on Mars colonization is a silly thing to do.

Its not just about Mars colonization. It's also about the attitudes (and carelessness) our culture has towards Earth. Just because you think it's stupid doesn't make it stupid.

DoctorOfSpace wrote:
Why not both?

Because in space, we can create 1G habitats. On Mars, we can't.

It's not like the two don't overlap. IMO we will be more prepared to be a spacefaring species with greater infrastructure in orbit/space then if we have a Mars colony.

I guess I should have expected emotional responses to my views against Mars colonization on here of all places. I have the fullest faith in the human race, and technology, and space. With that said I think the human colonization of Mars is not worth it, and (as of now) irresponsible. If the planet is to have any use at all it should be nothing more than a source for material resources to build more ships and space stations. This is work that should be completed by robots on the surface, not humans (who can supervise the operation from an orbiting habitat).
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03 May 2017 10:17

I am hoping we can live long enough to travel like in Elite Dangerous.
 
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03 May 2017 10:32

werdnaforever wrote:
Source of the post Its not just about Mars colonization. It's also about the attitudes (and carelessness) our culture has towards Earth. Just because you think it's stupid doesn't make it stupid.

I keep hearing assertions that people who support settling Mars view Earth as disposable, yet I've never seen any evidence of this. I have never met anyone - not one person - who supported settling Mars and who had a careless attitude towards Earth and the environment. And no one who has ever asserted that such people exist has shown me any evidence to support their claim. That includes Mr. Maher. Can you point to some?

werdnaforever wrote:
Source of the post Because in space, we can create 1G habitats. On Mars, we can't.

And just why is 1g preferable to 0.38g? Or 0.5g? Or 0.25g? At 1g, a fall from standing height - as in simply falling over while standing - is often harmful, and can even be fatal. That's insane. And from what I understand of human physiology in reduced-gravity environments, humans can function totally normally from about 0.2g and up. Reductions in bone and muscle mass can be countered and don't matter as much anyway if you're living in lower gravity for your whole life.

werdnaforever wrote:
Source of the post IMO we will be more prepared to be a spacefaring species with greater infrastructure in orbit/space then if we have a Mars colony.

You seem to be implying that if we settle Mars, no one will bother to develop Earth orbit and deep space destinations. I am willing to bet the value of the crown jewels of England that that won't be the case. BOTH will be extensively developed, because there are more factors motivating the development of space than simply choosing one place to settle. Many more. I'd be shocked if more than 30% of our space-directed efforts were directed at Mars in the long term, even with colonization. Probably the amount will be much less.

There is one other point you seem to be missing: economic viability. It will always be more economical to settle Mars than deep space, because Mars has abundant and easily accessible natural resources. Deep space, in almost all cases, does not. This makes it much harder and more expensive to build and maintain large settlements in deep space or Earth orbit (in fact, Earth orbit would be the most expensive place of all).

I am 100% in favor of deep space settlements and colonies. I just don't see any conflict between that and Mars colonization, nor do I see a compelling argument for prioritizing deep space habitats over Mars ones.
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03 May 2017 11:06

werdnaforever wrote:
Source of the post being sarcastic doesn't invalidate his point.


I think it does.  Sarcasm implies a general disdain for something suggesting either a bias or preconceived notion.  Sarcasm is not meant to be taken seriously.

werdnaforever wrote:
Source of the post I don't think we can seriously talk about long-term colonization unless we are prepared to solve the low-gravity issue.


werdnaforever wrote:
Source of the post Because in space, we can create 1G habitats. On Mars, we can't.


It may not be required, and if people are going to stay on Mars then it won't be a problem. There are also solutions to creating 1G environments on Mars.

Skip to 44:45


This nullifies the rest of your problems, as does HarbingerDawn's post.

werdnaforever wrote:
Source of the post The human rights issue here cannot be ignored.


I disagree. You educate the people on the risks vs rewards, you tell them there is a chance they will die, and they make the choice to go. There were no human rights concerns when western civilization settled the Americas and there shouldn't be when Mars is settled, the only concern should be to inform people as to the dangers they will face.

werdnaforever wrote:
Source of the post I guess I should have expected emotional responses to my views against Mars colonization on here of all places.


Hardly emotional. My views on the colonization on Mars are based on objective reality, what there is currently, what is technologically possible, what will be possible in the future that is currently known to be possible, and on what countless studies have shown for human tolerance.

Mars is doable, it will be difficult, but it can be colonized with modern technology.

werdnaforever wrote:
Source of the post If the planet is to have any use at all it should be nothing more than a source for material resources to build more ships and space stations.


I don't disagree, I think space colonization is important and the future as well, but currently the infrastructure to do so doesn't exist. The infrastructure to colonize the Moon and Mars does exist to some extent, it just needs to be scaled up. The sooner we spread the human race out, the better our chances for reaching a point in the future where space colonies can be built en masse.

werdnaforever wrote:
Source of the post This is work that should be completed by robots on the surface, not humans (who can supervise the operation from an orbiting habitat).


Didn't you just say

werdnaforever wrote:
Source of the post we can't prepare for technology we don't even know is possible. There's a difference between being bold pioneers and being irresponsible.
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03 May 2017 14:15

Fair enough. Perhaps I was wrong about the technology and social attitudes.

I still think the ethical issues regarding Martian children are important.
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HarbingerDawn
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03 May 2017 16:48

werdnaforever wrote:
Source of the post I still think the ethical issues regarding Martian children are important.

What about the ethical issues regarding children today? Arbitrary creation of new sentient beings with a very high likelihood of their experiencing significant amounts of suffering in their lives. And that's TODAY, on EARTH. How can that be justified in the first place?
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03 May 2017 19:09

HarbingerDawn wrote:
Source of the post What about the ethical issues regarding children today? Arbitrary creation of new sentient beings with a very high likelihood of their experiencing significant amounts of suffering in their lives. And that's TODAY, on EARTH. How can that be justified in the first place?

Sure, but there's a higher likelihood of suffering if you're raised on a Mars colony.
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03 May 2017 19:20

I'm not sure if that can be supported rigorously.  A large percentage of people on Earth born today suffer for a variety of reasons -- whether it be malnutrition, insufficient or contaminated water, lack of basic health care, living conditions, family conditions, oppression, violence and warfare, slavery or sex trafficking... the list goes on and on.  There are a lot of problems on Earth currently and a different set of potential problems on a Mars colony, and it's not clear how to compare them quantitatively or even if such a comparison would really be meaningful.
 
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04 May 2017 02:50

Watsisname wrote:
Source of the post even if such a comparison would really be meaningful.


I don't think they would be.  Personally I think going to Mars would most likely help to solve problems back here on Earth.




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07 May 2017 17:09

DoctorOfSpace wrote:

I saw an old X-files episode recently which I had missed when it originally aired, where a politician was injected with nanotechnology and then a russian spy was able to flat line him and then bring him back and told him if certain legislation didn't go through that he wouldn't come back from the next flat line. Nanotech being controlled remotely is pretty scary.
 
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10 May 2017 04:04

A common concern people have about AI is that at some point AI will surpass human intelligence generally, and then AI will simply improve itself exponentially and humans become irrelevant and are supposedly doomed.  They say that we need to think about this now and find a solution before this happens.  We might only be decades away.

It's difficult problem, but the simple answer is not to worry and just ask the AI to solve it for us when then time comes.  Or?
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