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28 May 2020 17:48

midtskogen wrote:
Watsisname wrote:
Source of the post  It's not like nuclear radiation which may make things radioactive.

Yes, but usually, what makes people or things radioactive is the contamination by radioactive dust or material, not the radiation itself.  For that, the radiation needs to change the nucleus of atoms to form new isotopes.  Neutron radiation does that.

what about something like x-rays? we have regulations that need to be followed for exposure to x-rays.
 
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29 May 2020 13:56

A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post what about something like x-rays? we have regulations that need to be followed for exposure to x-rays.

X-rays will not make you radioactive.  They affect the electrons and powerful or long exposures are harmful, but they don't affect the nucleus of atoms and wont make you any more radioactive than you already are.
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01 Jun 2020 22:21

Sorry to disturb all, I will be back at Friday with a new powerful computer and installing a space engine from steam. :D back to my favorite game
 
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08 Jun 2020 11:33

midtskogen wrote:
A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post what about something like x-rays? we have regulations that need to be followed for exposure to x-rays.

X-rays will not make you radioactive.  They affect the electrons and powerful or long exposures are harmful, but they don't affect the nucleus of atoms and wont make you any more radioactive than you already are.

No, I mean what is good limit for exposure to xrays before tissue damage can be caused by them?
Also, I have been reading that it's a good thing that the Olympics have been canceled, not just because of the virus, but because of the dangerous levels of exposure still present in the area around the plant, where the torch was supposed to pass through.
Getting back to the pandemic, NYC has finally opened up, although to many it feels like it was already open because of the civil rights marches being conducted nationwide (really, worldwide.)  2020 seems to be a turning point on many levels.
 
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08 Jun 2020 13:55

A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post Also, I have been reading that it's a good thing that the Olympics have been canceled, not just because of the virus, but because of the dangerous levels of exposure still present in the area around the plant, where the torch was supposed to pass through.

It's not cancelled, but rescheduled for 2021.  Also, cancelling the games because the torch would pass through Fukushima is true nutcase material.  I wonder what you are reading.  It's not dangerous to go near the plant.  In some areas inside the plant you probably don't wont to spend more than an hour, but a few km away there is no harm to stay for a short period.  The issue is that places that close are unsuited for permanent residence.

A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post Getting back to the pandemic, NYC has finally opened up, although to many it feels like it was already open because of the civil rights marches being conducted nationwide

The irony of the slogans "I can't breathe" and "black lives matter"...  Maybe there will be no significant new outbreaks, but there is a risk, a risk that was judged high enough to close down cities.  If these marches cause no uptick in covid-19 at all, it's strong evidence that the shutdown was an overreaction.  If there is an uptick, congratulation, protesters, you undid the costliest operation in decades and caused much suffering and death.  Either way, there will be embarrassment.

That said, I do understand the protests, but there are other ways.  The issue goes deep in the US, the police behaviour is just one small piece of this.  I think there is an attitude problem within the US police.  There seems to be a desire amongst some officers to appear bold through force, but to me they look like the most scared and wimpiest people.  I see exaggerated force triggered by total panic over the slightest danger.  A truly intrepid officer would face a dangerous situation attempting hard to resolve it without the use of force.
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08 Jun 2020 15:44

midtskogen wrote:
A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post Also, I have been reading that it's a good thing that the Olympics have been canceled, not just because of the virus, but because of the dangerous levels of exposure still present in the area around the plant, where the torch was supposed to pass through.

It's not cancelled, but rescheduled for 2021.  Also, cancelling the games because the torch would pass through Fukushima is true nutcase material.  I wonder what you are reading.  It's not dangerous to go near the plant.  In some areas inside the plant you probably don't wont to spend more than an hour, but a few km away there is no harm to stay for a short period.  The issue is that places that close are unsuited for permanent residence.

A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post Getting back to the pandemic, NYC has finally opened up, although to many it feels like it was already open because of the civil rights marches being conducted nationwide

The irony of the slogans "I can't breathe" and "black lives matter"...  Maybe there will be no significant new outbreaks, but there is a risk, a risk that was judged high enough to close down cities.  If these marches cause no uptick in covid-19 at all, it's strong evidence that the shutdown was an overreaction.  If there is an uptick, congratulation, protesters, you undid the costliest operation in decades and caused much suffering and death.  Either way, there will be embarrassment.

That said, I do understand the protests, but there are other ways.  The issue goes deep in the US, the police behaviour is just one small piece of this.  I think there is an attitude problem within the US police.  There seems to be a desire amongst some officers to appear bold through force, but to me they look like the most scared and wimpiest people.  I see exaggerated force triggered by total panic over the slightest danger.  A truly intrepid officer would face a dangerous situation attempting hard to resolve it without the use of force.

It was an HBO doc, I think I posted the link in another thread.  They didn't want to cancel the Olympics, they wanted to change the path of the torch relay.  The previous PM was on the documentary talking about mistakes they made during the clean up and about how radioactivity in the mountains was being washed down into the populated valleys during rainstorms.  A nuclear chemist measured the radiation level and stated that it wasn't safe to be there for more than 30 minutes and the people being employed to do the clean up were untrained unemployed people without proper protective equipment.  It was typical of the kind of shoddy work you see in third world countries.  When they sent robots into the reactor area they didn't last very long and the area is still leaking radiation.

I found a small clip from the HBO piece.  Basically they are saying that Japan should have done what Russia did with the area around Chernobyl.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EoEe5WkFvI

The games are rescheduled, but it's tentative based on what the virus does.  They'll make a final decision in the Spring.

more here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0hgfBkIBDM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpxtMBOiD6A


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lhc-c2mRmo0

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes ... fukushima/



The problem with police in the US, and this goes back for decades, is police militarization.  America has a very violent culture that is also racist.  People dont like to hear this, but racism is very prevalent in America, though not overtly in many cases.  This is an excellent read.
“If so many white people were not revolted by the idea of their tax dollars helping poor people of color obtain education, housing & social benefits — we would most likely have a social democracy like Norway or Canada” - Michelle Alexander ⁦⁦

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/08/opin ... -race.html

and we probably wouldn't have lost so many people to Covid-19 either.

Speaking of which, progressive New Zealand has done a nice job in clearing up all their CoVid-19 cases.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-zealan ... da-ardern/
 
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09 Jun 2020 05:15

A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post I found a small clip from the HBO piece.

It doesn't seem to be available in Europe.  There is no reason to doubt that there are spots where 30 minutes is enough, but it's surely not descriptive of the wider region (i.e. kilometres away from the plant).

Radiation is not relevant for the Olympics.  Athletes and foreign spectators will receive a much higher radiation dose from the flights to and from Japan, than what they risk to get from the Fukushima plant.
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09 Jun 2020 07:07

A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post Basically they are saying that Japan should have done what Russia did with the area around Chernobyl.

What Japan did and what the Soviet Union did were pretty similar, leaving aside that with Chernobyl the magnitude of radioactive material released was profoundly greater. Both countries established an exclusion zone where you cannot have permanent residents. Both countries dealt with the contaminated environment by literally digging up the top layers of soil and burying it. Russia's effort also involved over half a million liquidators who received minimal training and minimal protective equipment. Many of them died from radiation related illness. And if you go to the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone today, you can find areas where it is not safe to stand without protection for more than an hour. Sometimes less, particularly near the old equipment they used in the cleanup effort, much of which is still laying around.
 
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09 Jun 2020 08:47

midtskogen wrote:
Source of the post Maybe there will be no significant new outbreaks, but there is a risk, a risk that was judged high enough to close down cities.  If these marches cause no uptick in covid-19 at all, it's strong evidence that the shutdown was an overreaction.  If there is an uptick, congratulation, protesters, you undid the costliest operation in decades and caused much suffering and death.  Either way, there will be embarrassment.


The idea behind closing down cities is to do more than keep people from gathering in the streets. It also means keeping them from gathering inside of buildings -- shops, restaurants, places of work, and the public transportation network, where they may be in close proximity with other people in an enclosed space for an extended period of time. We now go through the same reasoning during the reopening phase: how essential is the business, and how safe can its operations be made?

People gathering in the streets to protest could be an effective transmission mechanism for the virus, but it also depends on how safely they do so. At least in many of the protests I have seen here in Bellingham, the vast majority of participants were wearing masks, which probably helps. We are also now fairly late in the decline for urban areas in the US, so the fraction of the population involved in these protests who might be infected may be less than it was when the shutdowns occurred. But, there may be other places where people are less safe, and/or where the virus is still more prevalent.

So we could see some uptick in new cases due to the demonstrations (Fauci and other experts warn this is possible), but if not then I don't think it means the shutdowns were excessive. Or if we see a big uptick, then it may speak more about how unsafe the protesters were being. There might even be an excellent opportunity for epidemiology and contact tracing here, where any new outbreaks that happen in various cities could be compared in terms of how socially distanced and personally protected people were in different cities, which could provide insights into the reopenings and our future handling of the virus until vaccines become available.

Anyway, I'm personally very sympathetic to the people's desire to get out and protest, but I think that doing so during a pandemic is not the most wise decision. But I also favor other ways of trying to enact change than by protesting, anyway. Protesting is very visible, but without a clear proposition I don't think it tends to get much done. Better to get in touch with your representatives, the media, and vote.
 
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09 Jun 2020 11:51

Watsisname wrote:
A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post Basically they are saying that Japan should have done what Russia did with the area around Chernobyl.

What Japan did and what the Soviet Union did were pretty similar, leaving aside that with Chernobyl the magnitude of radioactive material released was profoundly greater. Both countries established an exclusion zone where you cannot have permanent residents. Both countries dealt with the contaminated environment by literally digging up the top layers of soil and burying it. Russia's effort also involved over half a million liquidators who received minimal training and minimal protective equipment. Many of them died from radiation related illness. And if you go to the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone today, you can find areas where it is not safe to stand without protection for more than an hour. Sometimes less, particularly near the old equipment they used in the cleanup effort, much of which is still laying around.

Wat, according to experts it's going to take many decades to clean up the Fukushima disaster, looks like some towns near the reactor are still ghost towns..... the video I looked at showed that Japan only cleaned the top inch of soil, and moreover they used untrained workers who wore little or no protective equipment.  When the workers were interviewed, it was found up they were mostly unemployed former postal workers with no knowledge of how to do a proper clean up.  Aside from that, the radioactive soil they dug up was piled into thousands of large garbage bags dangerously close to a playground.  The area is also near a mountain range, where no clean up can be done and it was reported that whenever it rains, radioactive waste comes down from there and into the valleys.

Mid, I generally agree with what you said in that radiation levels wont be significant for spectators, etc., they were just addressing the part of the torch relay that runs through that area.  There is also the concern about radiation levels near school yards nearby:

On 6 May 2012 it became known that according to documents of the municipal education board reports submitted by each school in Fukushima prefecture in April at least 14 elementary schools, 7 junior high and 5 nursery schools so called "hot spots" existed, where the radiation exposure was more than 3.8 microsieverts per hour, resulting in an annual cumulative dose above 20 millisieverts. However all restrictions, that limited the maximum time to three hours for the children to play outside at the playgrounds of the schools, were lifted at the beginning of the new academic year in April by the education board. The documents were obtained by a group of civilians after a formal request to disclose the information. Tokiko Noguchi, the foreman of a group of civilians, insisted that the education board would restore the restrictions

https://archive.today/20120710194455/ht ... 1000c.html

A total of 45 hotspots have also been detected in downtown Fukushima.
All the affected areas exceed the IAEA's safety standards of zero-point-three to zero-point-five microsieverts an hour.
some hotspots show a reading of 71 microsieverts an hour at the surface level.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUolf03oCCo

A total of 45 hotspots have also been detected in downtown Fukushima.
All the affected areas exceed the IAEA's safety standards of zero-point-three to zero-point-five microsieverts an hour.
some hotspots show a reading of 71 microsieverts an hour at the surface level.

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/decommission/ ... dex-e.html

https://apnews.com/d1b8322355f3f31109dd925900dff200

Prime Minister Abe in 2013 declared that the situation at Fukushima Daiichi was under control. Seven years later there still remains a nuclear emergency at the nuclear plant and surrounding areas. In addition to the enormous challenges of how to safely manage over 1 million tonnes of contaminated water at the site and as much as 880 tonnes of molten nuclear fuel for which there is no credible solution, there remain wider issues regarding radioactive contamination of the environment, its effect on workers and Fukushima citizens, including evacuees and their human rights.

https://storage.googleapis.com/planet4- ... ksm_en.pdf

Radiation levels in the exclusion zone and lifted evacuation areas of Namie and Iitate are a significant risk for the public including children. Levels range from five to over 100 times higher than the internationally recommended maximum and will remain so for many decades and into next century.[3]
In the exclusion zone in Obori in Namie, average radiation levels were 4.0 μSv per hour. These levels are so high that if a worker would operate there for eight hours per day during a full year, they could receive a dose equivalent to more than a hundred chest X-rays.
At a forest across the street from a kindergarten and school in Namie town where evacuation orders have been lifted, the average radiation level was 1.8 μSv per hour. All 1,584 points measured exceeded the Japanese government’s long-term decontamination target of 0.23 μSv per hour. In 28% of this area, the children’s annual dose could be 10-20 times higher than the internationally recommended maximum.
Worker exploitation is widespread, including recruitment from the disadvantaged  and homeless, no effective training in radiation protection, falsification of identification and health certificates, and unreliable official records.
A former decontamination worker Mr. Minoru Ikeda who is featured in the Greenpeace Japan report says his experience made him feel like they were treated inhumanely.

“One person compared it to slavery. As someone who has been there at the scene, I want to let the world know what is happening. I want to call on the Japanese government to respect the health of workers and stop sending people to do these dangerous jobs, and also to provide proper support for the workers,” says Mr. Ikeda.

The report comes one month after the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child issued a damning series of recommendations to the Japanese government which, if implemented, would terminate current policies in Fukushima, including a halt to lifting evacuation orders, full compensation to evacuees, and the full application of all relevant human rights obligations to evacuees and workers.[4]

“In its reporting to the United Nations, the Japanese government deliberately misrepresents the scale, complexity, and radiation risks in areas of Fukushima, the working practice and conditions for workers, and its disregard for children’s health and wellbeing. This reality should shame the government to radically change its failing policies,” said Kazue Suzuki, Energy Campaigner of Greenpeace Japan.

“At the root of the Fukushima nuclear disaster and resulting human rights violations is the dangerous energy policy of the Japanese government. What the majority of Japanese people are demanding is a transition to renewable energy. Yet, the government is seeking to restart nuclear reactors and at the same time dramatically increase the number of coal power plants, which leads to extreme climate change,” Suzuki added.[5]



By the way, I have some good news for you.  When you mentioned that you had concerns about wind energy, I contacted Governor Cuomo's energy department and asked them about it, because we are building 300 miles of wind mills just offshore from Long Island where I live and where a lot of sea birds live and migrate through.  They finally replied back to me last week and told me that they are working with a tech company that specializes in AI which has provided them with equipment that can quickly detect the presence of birds in flight and shut down any wind mills in their path in a matter of a few seconds.  They also mentioned that they are building a power cable from the part of the state that borders the Great Lakes and by 2030 we should be 100 pct renewable energy, which will chiefly be a combination of wind energy and hydroelectric, which is what the upstate has now.  Hopefully that will also improve our air quality and cut into the high asthma rates around here (we've also transitioned to electric buses.)
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09 Jun 2020 12:05

Watsisname wrote:
midtskogen wrote:
Source of the post Maybe there will be no significant new outbreaks, but there is a risk, a risk that was judged high enough to close down cities.  If these marches cause no uptick in covid-19 at all, it's strong evidence that the shutdown was an overreaction.  If there is an uptick, congratulation, protesters, you undid the costliest operation in decades and caused much suffering and death.  Either way, there will be embarrassment.


The idea behind closing down cities is to do more than keep people from gathering in the streets. It also means keeping them from gathering inside of buildings -- shops, restaurants, places of work, and the public transportation network, where they may be in close proximity with other people in an enclosed space for an extended period of time. We now go through the same reasoning during the reopening phase: how essential is the business, and how safe can its operations be made?

People gathering in the streets to protest could be an effective transmission mechanism for the virus, but it also depends on how safely they do so. At least in many of the protests I have seen here in Bellingham, the vast majority of participants were wearing masks, which probably helps. We are also now fairly late in the decline for urban areas in the US, so the fraction of the population involved in these protests who might be infected may be less than it was when the shutdowns occurred. But, there may be other places where people are less safe, and/or where the virus is still more prevalent.

So we could see some uptick in new cases due to the demonstrations (Fauci and other experts warn this is possible), but if not then I don't think it means the shutdowns were excessive. Or if we see a big uptick, then it may speak more about how unsafe the protesters were being. There might even be an excellent opportunity for epidemiology and contact tracing here, where any new outbreaks that happen in various cities could be compared in terms of how socially distanced and personally protected people were in different cities, which could provide insights into the reopenings and our future handling of the virus until vaccines become available.

Anyway, I'm personally very sympathetic to the people's desire to get out and protest, but I think that doing so during a pandemic is not the most wise decision. But I also favor other ways of trying to enact change than by protesting, anyway. Protesting is very visible, but without a clear proposition I don't think it tends to get much done. Better to get in touch with your representatives, the media, and vote.

There may be a small rise in transmission, but it probably wont be significant in protests where masks were used.  Looks like wearing a mask lowers transmission rate by a large amount- even more than distancing does.  And transmission rate doesn't seem to be high in open areas- being in a poorly ventilated room is where it's more prevalent.  Besides Cuomo has opened up thirteen free testing sensors specifically for protesters.  
The protesting is having a significant impact- looks like it's motivating lawmakers in getting things done, with much more transparency, making police records available, and even defunding the police- moving money away from police militarization and into education and health care- which is a much more effective way of fixing the problem, as a city like Camden, NJ has shown.  Cuomo was talking about this in a few of his more recent videos.
I like things like boycotts and petitions, I dont even mind some property destruction, as MLK said, when your own government has done great evil like dropping napalm on Vietnamese villages, some property damage pales in comparison.
I think protesting makes some privileged people VERY uncomfortable, because they are forced to face the racist bigoted nature of modern society.  When they see picketers standing outside of Walmart because they sell products made in third world sweat shops where children are employed or large corrupt banking institutions like Bank of America and Wells Fargo that preyed on consumers in the housing market or still fund dirty fossil fuel projects (reasons I will never do business with any of the above, ever.)  Or stores like The Dollar Store which sell non-nutritious processed food in urban communities thus causing the people living there to have high rates of diabetes, obesity and hypertension, or dirty factories that use fossil fuels that make those same communities unhealthy because of poor air quality or pharma companies that artificially raise prices on life saving drugs to take advantage of low income people who need them the most.  It's why I stay informed on all these issues and avoid these products and those businesses completely.  I was encouraged to see that doctors and nurses are protesting alongside the rest of us, and even law enforcement has joined in, they mentioned that they want to get rid of these corrupt law enforcement people but the union keeps them from doing so.  I believe people need to be outspoken and make privileged people highly uncomfortable.  Often change does not come peacefully, revolutions are required to upset the corrupt status quo and create a new society.  Even people like MLK understood this, because humans dont like change until it confronts them in the face and they have no choice but to accept it.  Remember what the government did to Muhammad Ali when he rightfully refused to participate in the Vietnam War.....he had to go to the Supreme Court to get his citizenship and title back.  The NFL did the same thing to Kaepernick when he peacefully protest.....but years later he was vindicated, just like Ali was.  The problem is voting and protests dont change the fact that the overwhelming majority of owners in the NFL (just like the rest of the Billionaire's club) are white.  We need to create some noise in order to change that.  Boycotting and lawsuits will do the trick, like they will in the other problem areas I've mentioned.

There's an old saying.....well two actually....one from MLK....Violence is the voice of the unheard.  The other is...... Real systemic change is only possible when those who are least affected are outraged.

Wat, it's good to see it happening in academia too, as the problems of racism, bigotry and sexism are finally being addressed.

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On June 10, Nature will be joining #ShutdownStem #shutdownacademia #strike4blacklives. We will be educating ourselves and defining actions we can take to help eradicate anti-Black racism in academia and STEM https://shutdownstem.com. Please join us.

https://gizmodo.com/scientists-call-for ... 1843944068
 
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09 Jun 2020 13:40

A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post  Looks like wearing a mask lowers transmission rate by a large amount- even more than distancing does.

Probably not.  Masks protect if used properly, but if you don't wear it properly, touch it unnecessarily or incorrectly, take it on and off, etc, the mask will increase the risk of transmission.  So many will touch it improperly with their hands, then place that virus contaminated mask next to the mouth, and the mask does more harm than good.  I wouldn't trust the general public to do this right.

As for protesting, property damage will hurt the cause.  It's random, it's not even directed sabotage in any way.  The situation in the US will take time to fix.  Racial segregation was legally practised in the US well into the 60's, which is living memory.  The social damage it did takes generations to fix.
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09 Jun 2020 14:54

midtskogen wrote:
A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post  Looks like wearing a mask lowers transmission rate by a large amount- even more than distancing does.

Probably not.  Masks protect if used properly, but if you don't wear it properly, touch it unnecessarily or incorrectly, take it on and off, etc, the mask will increase the risk of transmission.  So many will touch it improperly with their hands, then place that virus contaminated mask next to the mouth, and the mask does more harm than good.  I wouldn't trust the general public to do this right.

As for protesting, property damage will hurt the cause.  It's random, it's not even directed sabotage in any way.  The situation in the US will take time to fix.  Racial segregation was legally practised in the US well into the 60's, which is living memory.  The social damage it did takes generations to fix.

I agree, I dont like property damage either and organizations like Greenpeace have stated that peaceful protests are much more useful, but it's also useful to make a comparison between protesters who do a little bit of damage vs warlike governments and the huge loss of life they cause in protracted wars that should never have happened in the first place and the amount of money spent on the military that could be far better spent on improving society by building better schools, improving healthcare etc.  Interesting thing that has happened in America is that we've defunded our public school system which has also resulted in a sharp increase in urban violence.  Putting some military and police money back into schools and healthcare would be a good idea- prevention is better than a "cure." (and policing isn't really a cure, which is why I put it in quotes.)  I dont know if you have access to Cuomo's press conferences like Wat does, but in the most recent one he highlighted some of the things he's going to try to change, including trying to balance the inequality of what is spent on schools in suburbia vs the inner city, it's a huge difference (something like 38,000 per student in suburbia vs 13,000 per student in the inner city.)
Yes, the general public needs to be "trained."  I also was thinking about this when Wat mentioned voting for change.  The problem is our political system is rigged with all the dark money in politics and I dont trust the general public to make the right decisions when it comes to voting either.  We need to reform the system to get that dark money out of politics.  And with regard to face coverings, the study I saw with regards to face masks stated that the spread was lowered from 13% to 3% when using a mask, though I suspect those were trained users of masks.
 
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09 Jun 2020 15:41

A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post I dont even mind some property destruction

A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post I agree, I dont like property damage either

So... do you not mind it, or you do? Being less bad than murder or war does not mean it is not bad.

To me, it is simply unacceptable. It is not protesting against wrongdoing, it is a wrongdoing. It is counterproductive and immoral. It undermines the message of peaceful protesters who are doing the right thing, and it causes financial harm and emotional distress to another person without their consent. Consider a restaurant owner who had to shut down for months due to COVID, worked very hard to restructure their business so that they could reopen safely, and then days before they were due to reopen, they had their windows broken and the interior ransacked.

Vandalism should be protested against. Please protest peacefully. :)
 
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09 Jun 2020 19:13

Watsisname wrote:
A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post I dont even mind some property destruction

A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post I agree, I dont like property damage either

So... do you not mind it, or you do? Being less bad than murder or war does not mean it is not bad.

To me, it is simply unacceptable. It is not protesting against wrongdoing, it is a wrongdoing. It is counterproductive and immoral. It undermines the message of peaceful protesters who are doing the right thing, and it causes financial harm and emotional distress to another person without their consent. Consider a restaurant owner who had to shut down for months due to COVID, worked very hard to restructure their business so that they could reopen safely, and then days before they were due to reopen, they had their windows broken and the interior ransacked.

Vandalism should be protested against. Please protest peacefully. :)

Yes, I am completely against it.  I am more into stuff like boycotting and signing petitions and picket lines, there's an emotional sense of satisfaction in being visible that way, while looting and destroying stuff just seems like hypocrisy to me- people who care about these issues should be above that sort of thing if they want to show they have a better sense of ethics than the people they are protesting against.   I was just trying to point out the dichotomy of some of the things police (and even the military if you look at what happened during the Vietnam War and how they killed peace activists at Kent State not to mention what was going on overseas) have been doing (members of different police departments across the country are even getting arrested during the protests) vs what some looters were doing.  It turned out the looting and property damage was being done by a separate set of people anyway, not the people who were protesting during the day.  John Miller, who works in security for NYC, admitted that they failed to properly monitor chatter on social media which they later found out left a trail that proved that the looting was elaborately planned out and used protesters as cover.

Since you are in the Pac NW, Wat, do you recall the protests during the G8 summit in Seattle?  I saw a doc on that a few years ago..... didn't the mayor have to resign because he was locking up protesters on false charges?

*when I said "I dont mind some property destruction"- I meant more along the lines of painting graffiti on walls, or the signs people have been leaving on the Trump fence around the White House, not looting or breaking stuff like the night time wannabe gangsters have been doing.  I should have worded it as minimal property "defacement" not destruction.

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