Ultimate space simulation software

 
User avatar
Watsisname
Science Officer
Science Officer
Posts: 971
Joined: 06 Sep 2016
Location: Bellingham, WA

Mouthwash on Science Communication and Scientific Literacy

04 Dec 2017 06:27

Mouthwash wrote:
Source of the post (Did you enjoy spending half your childhood in public school learning things you literally never used in any capacity afterwards? I sure didn't.)

Much of what I have learned has been directly useful for my career path (general sciences, math and physics), and much of the rest I still appreciate for having a well rounded education.  I enjoyed my courses in Art History even if I haven't really made much use of them, for example.

I think effective science communication in general is also pretty important.  Particularly because a lot of science funding requires public support, and it is hard to get public support if they do not understand why that research is important or how it benefits them.  
 
User avatar
Mouthwash
Explorer
Explorer
Topic Author
Posts: 156
Joined: 22 May 2017

Mouthwash on Science Communication and Scientific Literacy

04 Dec 2017 08:05

"combined with the fact that you clearly aren't reading and understanding what's being written to you (as your most recent comments on democracy and creationism demonstrate) means that there is simply no foundation for continued discussion. There would be no point. I'm done."

I haven't mentioned creationism even one time on this thread (and I am not a creationist).

"Much of what I have learned has been directly useful for my career path (general sciences, math and physics),"

Yes, it may have been useful for someone with your interests and skills, but anything beyond long division is a total waste of time for most people. Honestly, it's hard to understand how anyone could think that giving someone "general knowledge" for the first decade of their education is a good idea. I recall my math classes as - quite literally - making me memorize one algorithm after another.

"and much of the rest I still appreciate for having a well rounded education.  I enjoyed my courses in Art History even if I haven't really made much use of them, for example."

There are many, many more students who didn't enjoy them and also didn't enjoy having to blow huge amounts of their time studying after school. The real purpose of public schooling is to (A) give kids something to do and keep them off the street (B) let employers get an immediate outside-view impression of students by assigning them scores/grades. The purpose of this system is to determine who can conform to the standards of a classroom while also maintaining high scores. 'No child left behind' is quite the ironic slogan, given that school's basic task is to determine who is to be left behind.


"I think effective science communication in general is also pretty important.  Particularly because a lot of science funding requires public support, and it is hard to get public support if they do not understand why that research is important or how it benefits them."

No matter how hard you work, you'll always be outgunned by the lobbyists of less scientific, less important but more profitable issues. Exposure matters, not truth.
 
User avatar
XBrain130
Explorer
Explorer
Posts: 267
Joined: 26 Nov 2016
Location: Italy
Contact:

Mouthwash on Science Communication and Scientific Literacy

04 Dec 2017 10:48

I utterly agree with Harbinger's last post,

but I absolutely have to say a last thing

Mouthwash:
Source of the post I can't comment on his actual scientific work, but as a science communicator and philosopher I strongly dislike him.

I really, really hope I then misunderstood this sentence as "I am [these] and I hate him" while you meant "I hate him being [these]".

I'm also going to ignore this thread from now on since your lastest responses exactly sound like they were ripped from the mouth of a conspiracy theorist with a persecution complex.
SpaceEngine's Italian Discord server: https://discord.gg/NhQbEbC
 
User avatar
DoctorOfSpace
World Builder
World Builder
Posts: 938
Joined: 22 Aug 2016
Location: SpaceX Mars Colony
Contact:

Mouthwash on Science Communication and Scientific Literacy

04 Dec 2017 12:16

Mouthwash wrote:
Source of the post How anyone anywhere defines it? A "collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method."

And that is not what Evo Psych is.  Psychology on it's own is a fairly young field of science but it has become far more scientific than it once was.
CPU: Intel Core i7-5820K 4.2GHz 6-Core Processor - RAM: G.Skill Ripjaws V Series 32GB (4 x 8GB) DDR4-2400 - GPU: EVGA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti SC Black Edition
Quando omni flunkus, moritati
 
User avatar
Gnargenox
Pioneer
Pioneer
Posts: 396
Joined: 11 Dec 2016
Location: 179° 56′ 39.4″ +0° 2′ 46.2″ @ 7,940 ± 420 pc

Mouthwash on Science Communication and Scientific Literacy

04 Dec 2017 12:35

I enjoyed hearing "billions, and billions". Plus I liked him better than Neil deGrasse Tyson or Stephen Hawking as a mouthpiece
Attachments
ZomboMeme 04122017142431_1512419272425_1512419354536.png
CPU: AMD FX-8350 8 core processor 4GHz / GPU: GeForce GT 730 @ 1920x1080, 60Hz with 1GB adapter RAM / RAM: Patriot Signature 4GB 1600MHz 240-Pin DDR3 (only 2GB work, don't buy it) / Motherboard: MSI 970 Gaming MS-7693
 
User avatar
Mouthwash
Explorer
Explorer
Topic Author
Posts: 156
Joined: 22 May 2017

Mouthwash on Science Communication and Scientific Literacy

04 Dec 2017 12:45

"I really, really hope I then misunderstood this sentence as "I am [these] and I hate him" while you meant "I hate him being [these]"."

What? I meant that I don't like the view of science he propounds and I don't like his philosophical thinking. That is all.

"And that is not what Evo Psych is."

Well, okay, I can't prove that there isn't genuine, rigorous work being done somewhere. But the amount of nonsense I see in the field makes me uncomfortable going anywhere near it. It's a very difficult subject to draw any conclusions from, and a very lucrative one for political purposes.

"Psychology on it's own is a fairly young field of science but it has become far more scientific than it once was."


Considering how it started, it would be almost impossible not to. :roll:
 
User avatar
DoctorOfSpace
World Builder
World Builder
Posts: 938
Joined: 22 Aug 2016
Location: SpaceX Mars Colony
Contact:

Mouthwash on Science Communication and Scientific Literacy

04 Dec 2017 15:49

Mouthwash wrote:
Source of the post I can't prove that there isn't genuine, rigorous work being done somewhere.


There is a lot of research being done around the world in regards to Evo Psych. When I was switching my degree from evolutionary biology into psychology I took courses on Evo Psych and I don't know where you get the idea that it isn't scientific because it most certainly is. Many of the major issues in the psychology field tend to come from overzealous interpretations of the data or people drawing conclusions that aren't exactly supported by the experiments. This happens in all fields of science, and thanks to the scientific method these are usually found fairly regularly and corrected.

Mouthwash wrote:
Source of the post Considering how it started, it would be almost impossible not to. :roll:


This applies to every field of science. They all had to start somewhere. If you are referring to Freudian Psychology then most of that is taught as part of the history of psychology nowadays during Psych 101, and not as part of standard curriculum. Modern psychology is much more accurate in diagnosis, treatment, and profiling of diseases and aspects of human psychology. It is required that you take anatomy and physiology courses, helps to do neuroanatomy as well.

Like any other field of science it has a lot of improvement left to make, but flat out going off and claiming it is unscientific and pseudoscience is a disservice to individuals who have and are spending their lives trying to advance the field. The principles of evolution do apply to psychology, they have to. Many of the conclusions people have claimed so far are loosely based on experimental data and conjecture. That is to be expected but there is more than enough evidence for it to be considered a field of scientific inquiry.

This will probably make you think I am biased or indoctrinated but Applied Psychology was my major. I started in Evolutionary Biology, moved in Social Psychology, Neurophysiology, Neuroanatomy, and ended up going into Evolutionary Psychology and ended with Applied Psychology.
CPU: Intel Core i7-5820K 4.2GHz 6-Core Processor - RAM: G.Skill Ripjaws V Series 32GB (4 x 8GB) DDR4-2400 - GPU: EVGA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti SC Black Edition
Quando omni flunkus, moritati
 
User avatar
midtskogen
Pioneer
Pioneer
Posts: 421
Joined: 11 Dec 2016
Location: Oslo, Norway
Contact:

Mouthwash on Science Communication and Scientific Literacy

05 Dec 2017 00:27

Mouthwash wrote:
Source of the post But yes, I think general education is impossible to have for non-elites, and should be discarded in favor of practical, skill-based education. (Did you enjoy spending half your childhood in public school learning things you literally never used in any capacity afterwards? I sure didn't.)

Ok, so you dislike school, because it teaches things that you can't immediately apply, and you think everybody else should dislike it, too.  And it sounds awfully like the socialist ideal that all are equal, which, when enforced, becomes that nobody should excel in any way.  Teach skills, you say, but skills haven't come from a vacuum or existed since the beginning of the universe.  Once somebody invented the skill, and went further in the search for knowledge than others to do so.

I have learnt so many things in school and university that I don't directly use in my daily life.  I even continued taking courses at the university for years after my degree with absolutely no intention of getting another degree.  I just wanted to know things. And I think you'll find many curious minds in these forums.  You've picked the wrong audience for your rants.
NIL DIFFICILE VOLENTI
 
User avatar
Mouthwash
Explorer
Explorer
Topic Author
Posts: 156
Joined: 22 May 2017

Mouthwash on Science Communication and Scientific Literacy

05 Dec 2017 15:05

"Many of the major issues in the psychology field tend to come from overzealous interpretations of the data or people drawing conclusions that aren't exactly supported by the experiments. This happens in all fields of science, and thanks to the scientific method these are usually found fairly regularly and corrected."

What does that even mean? It's a piece of jargon. I've never found a paper that denied being based on the scientific method.

You've also never heard of any 'replication crisis?' I previously mentioned that food scientists, medical researchers, and psychologists had gotten lots of things wrong. Are you even bothering to read my posts?

"This applies to every field of science. They all had to start somewhere."

Anyone practicing a field of pseudoscience like phrenology in the past centuries probably thought the exact same thing. 'This field may be young, but it has a great future!'

Nassim Taleb claims that any major finding of psychology that is (A) rigorous and (B) useful outside the narrow confines of experiment can already be found in classical literature. I don't know whether he's right or not, but I do know that finding testable and usable insights into something as incredibly complicated as the human mind requires a lot more than just a basic understand of Popperian falsification or statistics.

"Like any other field of science it has a lot of improvement left to make, but flat out going off and claiming it is unscientific and pseudoscience is a disservice to individuals who have and are spending their lives trying to advance the field. The principles of evolution do apply to psychology, they have to."

Two subjects we know incredibly little about - human evolution and the human mind. You don't see any issue with combining the two?

"Ok, so you dislike school, because it teaches things that you can't immediately apply, and you think everybody else should dislike it, too."

No, I dislike school because it teaches useless things to children who would be much healthier and happier if they spent that time doing different things, and teaches them extremely badly. I'm not for banning every class I personally find useless, but they should be optional at the very least.

"And it sounds awfully like the socialist ideal that all are equal, which, when enforced, becomes that nobody should excel in any way.  Teach skills, you say, but skills haven't come from a vacuum or existed since the beginning of the universe.  Once somebody invented the skill, and went further in the search for knowledge than others to do so."

This is not in any way I can discern a response to anything I've said.

"I have learnt so many things in school and university that I don't directly use in my daily life.  I even continued taking courses at the university for years after my degree with absolutely no intention of getting another degree.  I just wanted to know things."

I've never studied at university, but I'm more sympathetic towards them since they at least specialize their teaching to some degree and are intended to actually produce working citizens.

"And I think you'll find many curious minds in these forums.  You've picked the wrong audience for your rants."

Most of the intellectual forums I've been to agree with me on public schooling (on Lesswrong, I recall, someone considered it an outright form of child abuse). Are you sure we're talking about the same system here? You didn't go to a private school or live outside the US?
 
User avatar
Watsisname
Science Officer
Science Officer
Posts: 971
Joined: 06 Sep 2016
Location: Bellingham, WA

Mouthwash on Science Communication and Scientific Literacy

05 Dec 2017 17:09

Mouthwash wrote:
Source of the post Most of the intellectual forums I've been to agree with me on public schooling (on Lesswrong, I recall, someone considered it an outright form of child abuse). Are you sure we're talking about the same system here? You didn't go to a private school or live outside the US?


I neither attended private school nor live outside the US, and Midtskogen pretty much nailed how I feel about education.
 
User avatar
Mouthwash
Explorer
Explorer
Topic Author
Posts: 156
Joined: 22 May 2017

Mouthwash on Science Communication and Scientific Literacy

05 Dec 2017 17:14

Watsisname wrote:
Mouthwash wrote:
Source of the post Most of the intellectual forums I've been to agree with me on public schooling (on Lesswrong, I recall, someone considered it an outright form of child abuse). Are you sure we're talking about the same system here? You didn't go to a private school or live outside the US?

I neither attended private school nor live outside the US, and Midtskogen pretty much nailed how I feel about education.  

I'm very happy that you had a different relationship with school than I did. But I don't think your experience reflects what most American students go through (I was literally being taught the same math in ninth grade that I was in sixth).
 
User avatar
HarbingerDawn
SE Team Member
SE Team Member
Posts: 367
Joined: 22 Aug 2016
Location: CT, USA
Contact:

Mouthwash on Science Communication and Scientific Literacy

05 Dec 2017 18:25

I know I said I was out, but I just want to jump in and say - as an American who went to public schools in two different states in completely different parts of the country - that my experience and basic opinion mirrors that of midtskogen and Watsisname. I loved going to school, and I don't recall a single subject that I learned about that I didn't apply knowledge from later in my life.

The American education system needs serious reform, no doubt about it, but your suggestions take it in the complete wrong direction.
Ryzen 7 1700 OC to 3.8 GHz, 32 GB DDR4 RAM, GTX 980 Ti 6144 MB VRAM
Posts on old forum: 8717
 
User avatar
Watsisname
Science Officer
Science Officer
Posts: 971
Joined: 06 Sep 2016
Location: Bellingham, WA

Mouthwash on Science Communication and Scientific Literacy

05 Dec 2017 19:23

Mouthwash, I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it.  Experience can vary a lot in grade school, and I had a very bad time in middle school (grades 6-8).  But in mathematics things don't really take off until at least grade 9 anyway, when you get closer to calculus.  Before you get to calculus you deal with a lot of repetition in algebra, geometry, and trig.  You might be surprised to hear that I hated mathematics until my first calculus course, and it was the teacher who made all the difference.  Possibly it was also my own maturity and seeing the usefulness of mathematics.

I've also had courses for fulfilling "general education requirements", which I am glad to have taken even if they were not directly related to my career goals or academic interests.  And I think it is important that such a set of courses be a requirement.  I think it helps build a broader perspective.  I have also chosen to take courses which were not required or related to what I do, simply because I wanted to learn about them.  To quote myself on the old forum "I think a desire for learning is one of the best things a person can have in life."

I don't doubt you've found other people out there who share your views, but based on the comments in the thread so far, I do not think they are widely shared on this forum.  I think viewing public schooling as a form of child abuse is pretty nuts.  And I think your earlier comment about science communication and public outreach is a form of defeatism at a first glance, and a mere excuse for not wanting it at a second.
 
User avatar
Mouthwash
Explorer
Explorer
Topic Author
Posts: 156
Joined: 22 May 2017

Mouthwash on Science Communication and Scientific Literacy

05 Dec 2017 19:29

"And I think your earlier comment about science communication and public outreach is a form of defeatism at a first glance, and a mere excuse for not wanting it at a second."

I developed my cynical views of modern science long after developing my cynical views of public education.

Every community goes through some kind of selection process. People who are dedicated to Space Engine enough to frequent the forums... have a good chance of having enjoyed school, I guess.

I went though six different public schools in three different states, all A-rated I believe, and experienced... well, more than I'm willing to type up right now. I did post a rant on Civfanatics about year ago (I was also banned by request, so don't make any assumptions!). Does it square with your recollection?
Last edited by Mouthwash on 05 Dec 2017 19:39, edited 2 times in total.
 
User avatar
Watsisname
Science Officer
Science Officer
Posts: 971
Joined: 06 Sep 2016
Location: Bellingham, WA

Mouthwash on Science Communication and Scientific Literacy

05 Dec 2017 19:37

To be honest I'm not really interested in reading any rants.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Kermit and 1 guest