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JackDole
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07 Jul 2017 01:02

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MrZoolook
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10 Jul 2017 09:57

MrZoolook wrote wrote:
http://forum.spaceengine.org/viewtopic.php?p=9416#p9416 Firstly, the holy Islamic scriptures explicitly state that non-believers are to be executed.


So does the Bible (e.g. Deuteronomy 17:2-7, Deuteronomy 13:6-16)

The Christian Bible is split into two parts. The 'old' and 'new' testaments. Deutronomy is in the old testament. Christian values have evolved from that view, and it's followers largely adhere to the new testament which preaches tolerance, not death to infidels. The Quran has not been updated for the world we live in today. That was my point.

MrZoolook wrote wrote:
rape kids and avoiding arrest despite being reported years beforehand


I feel compelled to mention the Catholic church here...

MrZoolook wrote wrote:
so they don't get offended


Citation please?

Firstly, why did you split that line? It was a statement in entirety. I never claimed that members of other faiths don't rape kids, so please don't try and change my statements of fact into a falsehood to forward your own argument.


Secondly, puberty in the Quran is accepted as a sign of maturity. Girls mature quicker than boys, hitting puberty at around 9-12. Under Islamic law, this means she is fit for marriage and sexual relations as soon as she menstruates. The Quran effectively advocates child rape. You may try and deflect that, but it's written in the very documentation that Muslims still adhere to. Which other religious texts say having sex with a 12 year old is OK?


My claim is that when followers of other faiths rape children, they are generally investigated and punished swiftly when those offences are made known to the authority responsible to prosecute them. That standard procedure was not followed when a group of 'asian men' (a quote from a report that wasn't followed up) were investigated for rape and child abuse in Rotherham, UK. And that was done because the authorities involved were afraid of being called racist. Interestingly, all those eventually imprisoned 15 years after first being reported, are Muslim. This resulted in some 1400 underage children being subjected to abuse over those years, by a group of just 5 men.

"three reports from 2002 to 2006 highlighted the extent of child exploitation and links to wider criminality but nothing was done, with the findings either suppressed or simply ignored."


"The report said council staff were scared of being accused of racism by flagging up the issue in a town of nearly 260,000, where 8 per cent were from black and minority ethnic backgrounds."


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 91825.html

Contrast that with how quickly the widespread abuse of children in the Catholic church (which you cite) was investigated and prosecuted. Perhaps you explain what other contributing factors may explain the difference?


As I've said before, Islam has more than its share of problems, but it is either naïve or ignorant to suggest that other religions don't have theirs as well. To criticize Islam - to the exclusion of all other religions - is to promote a double standard.

Oh, I agree... I was just stating why Islam specifically, is far more odious and backwards. And that comparing what their followers do today, now, in this era, in the name of their belief, to what other religions did in the past before becoming enlightened and tolerant, is ignoring the fact that all other religions don't do those things any more.
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MrZoolook
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10 Jul 2017 10:39

And to the person posting video links for me. Sure, go ahead.

In the first vid alone, the speaker says he follows a man who says not to punish innocents, etc... the trouble here is that (as I said already) being non-muslim makes you guilty of the crime of not being Muslim. So you can be punished because you're not innocent.

People can show me these proofs of tolerance all they like. As a non-muslim, you are an enemy of Islam, and open to punishment according to the Islamic holy texts still in use. No other religious book still actively preaches and promotes that kind of viewpoint in society today. I don't understand why people still openly defend Islam. The world has moved on from the days when fire was akin to witchcraft, and most of humanity moved on with it. Islam hasn't. It remains non-tolerant to other faiths. If it didn't, why is the Quran unchanged from the time it was written?
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10 Jul 2017 10:51

I see "Politics" has become a synonym of "Religion" quite fast, as expected.
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MrZoolook
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10 Jul 2017 11:17

So, I decided to do the political compass test located here.

chart.png
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I will say as well, some of these questions were unfair. I can't remember the exact wording, but:
"A mother can have a career, but her priority must be her children."

If I was to say Agree or Strongly Agree, I'd be wrongly labelled sexist as the question is regarding 'mothers' only, right? But If I said Disagree or Strongly Disagree, I'd be going against my actual view that a parent (of either gender) should prioritise their child over a career. Frankly, questions like this piss me off.
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FastFourierTransform
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10 Jul 2017 12:00

Yes this kind of tests are quite ridiculous but they are fun at least. Way worse than IQ tests in terms of rigour and objectivity. Do politics can really be represented in a two dimensional sheet? do what we think expresses how we really operate in the world? who judges if state education is something leberal or authoritarian by itself? Can you really do such superficial metrics on people?

By the way, just for fun if 5 more of you make this plot I will make a unified one with a political center of gravity of the forum users if you want haha. But only for fun, because this is far from serious.
 
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HarbingerDawn
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10 Jul 2017 14:46

MrZoolook wrote:
Source of the post The Christian Bible is split into two parts. The 'old' and 'new' testaments. Deutronomy is in the old testament. Christian values have evolved from that view, and it's followers largely adhere to the new testament which preaches tolerance, not death to infidels. The Quran has not been updated for the world we live in today. That was my point.

That may be true in your country, but in my country there are a lot of fundamentalist Christians who adhere to the old testament. And last I checked, the new testament ADDS to the old one, it does not utterly invalidate it or redact it. It's still there, and a lot of people still look to it to inform their actions. In fact, Jesus himself states that everything in the old testament is still valid and to be upheld (Matthew 5:17-19).

MrZoolook wrote:
Source of the post Firstly, why did you split that line?

So I could respond to each part of it by itself, of course. I thought that was obvious.

MrZoolook wrote:
Source of the post I never claimed that members of other faiths don't rape kids, so please don't try and change my statements of fact into a falsehood to forward your own argument.

I did no such thing. However, YOU brought up that example as a specific case against Islam. I merely showed an example of how it wasn't just an issue with Islam.

MrZoolook wrote:
Source of the post Contrast that with how quickly the widespread abuse of children in the Catholic church (which you cite) was investigated and prosecuted.

I hope you've not forgotten how the Vatican actively worked to protect officials from prosecution by shuffling them around to places where they couldn't be touched.

MrZoolook wrote:
Source of the post My claim is that when followers of other faiths rape children, they are generally investigated and punished swiftly when those offences are made known to the authority responsible to prosecute them. That standard procedure was not followed when a group of 'asian men' (a quote from a report that wasn't followed up) were investigated for rape and child abuse in Rotherham, UK. And that was done because the authorities involved were afraid of being called racist.

You're describing a problem with the authorities here, not a problem with Islam.

MrZoolook wrote:
Source of the post Oh, I agree... I was just stating why Islam specifically, is far more odious and backwards. And that comparing what their followers do today, now, in this era, in the name of their belief, to what other religions did in the past before becoming enlightened and tolerant, is ignoring the fact that all other religions don't do those things any more.

You keep claiming that other religions are so enlightened and that they evolved, yet you don't back it up. You say the New Testament negates the Old (it doesn't), you imply that there's not a whole bunch of bad stuff in the New anyway (there is), and you repeatedly fail to show any evidence of true, systematic and fundamental change of Christianity. Statistically, yes, Christians do not behave as badly as they used to, and some Christian institutions have evolved, but the fundamentals of the religion have not changed at all. The Bible is the same today as it was centuries ago.

Again, for what feels like the thirtieth time, I AGREE that Islam deserves particular scrutiny and criticism. But to only EVER talk about Islam, to pretend that the problems of Islam aren't actually more fundamental and shared by multiple religions, is no good.
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MrZoolook
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11 Jul 2017 17:16

HarbingerDawn wrote:
Source of the post     MrZoolook wrote:
   Firstly, why did you split that line?


So I could respond to each part of it by itself, of course. I thought that was obvious.

But by splitting that line into two separate parts, you appear to suggest I said two separate statements, which I did not. And one of those is practically the exact opposite of my belief. And besides, if a statement is worth quoting to give a reference point in a counter-argument to aid clarity and prevent misunderstanding, it's worth quoting in its entirety... to aid clarity and prevent misunderstanding.
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HarbingerDawn
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11 Jul 2017 17:42

MrZoolook wrote:
Source of the post But by splitting that line into two separate parts, you appear to suggest I said two separate statements, which I did not.

Well I certainly was not suggesting any such thing, and I'm sorry if you thought otherwise. I'll do things differently in the future. But this is irrelevant to the topic and not worth getting too hung up on.
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halowraith1
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17 Jul 2017 14:03

guys try 8values https://8values.github.io/index.html instead of the political compass. i dont know if its any better but at least it gives you a neutral option.
 
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The Potato
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18 Jul 2017 17:59

It seems this conversation is getting a little violent and has drifted away from Politics to arguments about Islam.
Here is my semi-neutral opinion, #^%! organized religion.
Now lets finish this stupid argument and get back to politics.

Is the portrayal of communism as authoritarian fair and accurate?

This question should get this topic back on track.
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NathanKerbonaut
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18 Jul 2017 18:10

The Potato wrote:
Source of the post Is the portrayal of communism as authoritarian fair and accurate?

As far as I know Marx envisioned a government existing in a communist society, but of course it should act completely in favor of the people, not as a brutal dictatorship like the Soviet Union. Anarcho-communism is pretty popular, but personally I drift toward Marx's original vision, mainly because I don't believe an anarchic society could achieve deep space colonization, which I consider to be pretty darn important.
Don't take my words too seriously though, I haven't read the Communist Manifesto yet so I could be wrong on some details.
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The Potato
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18 Jul 2017 18:31

I honestly don't think the Soviet Union was Brutal, I think it was just authoritarian. 
The Soviet Union actually had a lot of social welfare and a decent standard of living. 
The authoritarian free market countries which were as authoritarian as the Soviet Union didn't have these so on-top of being  Authoritarian they were also massively poor and massively exploited by un-regulated corporations that only cared about money.
These countries include Guatemala after the 1954 coup, and Chile when Augustus Pinochet was in power.
 
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Starlight Glimmer
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18 Jul 2017 18:49

The USSR was a brutal state in my view. They were poor compared to Nato. Backwards and basically dicatorship under another skin and color. They drifted from the cause of their founders, and had alot of issues and problems. No wonder why they lost the cold war. They had some great things, like their space technology, free healthcare and lack of corporations. I'm strongly against corporations having that much money, money that could be put to better use for infrastructure improvement and maybe space technologies.

But a single party state is more efficent, but its disadvantages override its advantages. I do not agree with any established political party. I am independent. 
 
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HarbingerDawn
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12 Aug 2017 18:03

And this is why Antifa is bad.

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