Ultimate space simulation software

 
A-L-E-X
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03 Dec 2018 00:12

Yes and browsers like Chrome really suck up the memory too.
 
vlad01
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03 Dec 2018 00:32

A-L-E-X wrote:
vlad01 wrote:
I think that would be a massive challenge to get it to run at spec.  Remember the IMC is half the equation, and if it doesn't want to go that fast then the ram wont either.

I wonder if Asus bios can handle it, I went into their options and saw that as a selection (the highest option is DDR4-4200).

I was looking at different overclocked memory and it seems the vast majority are 2x8 GB, very few 2x16 GB are clocked higher than 3200.  Must be a stability thing.

BIOS is part of it, but mainly comes down to what the IMC can do (integrated memory controller) which is on the CPU itself. 2000 series is spec'd at 2666 so anything above that is OCing the IMC to get the ram to run at it's out of the box spec.   The BIOS has more to do with timings that are supported.  Anyway beyond 3466 on ryzen shows diminishing returns although there is still some tiny gains left going higher.

The reason it diminishes is because ryzen is memory bandwidth starved but it also already has higher latency compared to intel. So you make up bandwidth with faster ram but you loose performance with faster ram due to loose timings. So there is a point where one does up and the other goes down in equal performance, which happens around 3466-3600 were there is little beyond that. However if you happen get a get a miracle class CPU binning and the IMC also allows tight timing at those speeds then yes there will still be gains to be had but its a gamble at that point.

Ram speed and timing at tradeable, so say 4000 ram with 19,19,19,39  can probably be run at 3600 at 17,17,17, 34 for example.  This is exactly the best thing to do for ryzen if you can rather than running high er speed with loose timing or buying 3600 ram and also looser timing.  Better to over shoot in the max speed you know it should do and then under clock and use the head room on the ram to pull up the timing to what a typical 3200 kit would have.

This is how you get performance out of ryzen. expect 10-15% performance from stock just doing this and another 5-10% from a CPU OC on top.


As for the ram size effecting speed. I mentioned this a few pages back. Its dual rank vs single rank. With dual rank the IMC had double the modules to control so the whole system only goes as fast as the slowest controller/mem module and latency of the bus lines starts to add up.  At true instance of less is more.
 
Mr. Abner
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03 Dec 2018 14:28

A-L-E-X wrote:
Do you have an ASUS motherboard HD?

I cant find a proper thread for this so I'll talk about it here- when my old hard drive died a text file I need for SE went with it.  It had all the keyboard controls for moving or flying around and changing speeds and direction and also for leveling the horizon and stuff like that.  It also had the keyboard shortcuts for activating the console and landing at a certain lat/long and elevation and changing the fov and all that stuff.  Is there any site or file or somewhere in the program where I can access all this?  Basically I'm looking for all the keyboard controls and shortcuts for moving around and the commands and parameters that are used to do things in the console.

A bit off-topic, but you can find the info you need in the SpaceEngine\docs folder in a file called "readme_eng.txt".
Also, you can change your keys (and see what is already assigned for a particular function) to suit your need in one of the set-up menus in SpaceEngine. I'm sorry, I forget the actual menu options to get you there, but not hard to find.
 
A-L-E-X
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03 Dec 2018 23:52

Thanks Vlad!  I see exactly what you mean, I remember reading that timings are actually more important with Ryzen than actual memory speed, so getting faster memory and slightly underclocking it for tighter timings is actually better for performance than vice versa!  With Ryzen I heard the two things to avoid are dual rank and using all 4 memory slots, so for fastest timings and speeds the best option is 2x8 GB memory.  Both 2x16 GB and 4x8 GB can cause issues.

Abner thanks!  Is there anywhere I can find console commands, like how to enter the console or to land at a specific lat/long/elevation or changing the fov, etc.?
 
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N0B0DY
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04 Dec 2018 07:32

I ordered 4 of those so that I can play Star Citizen at 4k.
Even better: I ordered X of those so that I can play Y game at Z resolution. XYZ are variables of you choice..
.
.
.
.
.
.
Trolling in case anyone took me seriously :P..
On a side note I think NVidia is trolling us with the RTX series and its pricing in general..
 
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HarbingerDawn
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04 Dec 2018 09:25

A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post Do you have an ASUS motherboard HD?

Yes

A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post Is there any site or file or somewhere in the program where I can access all this?  Basically I'm looking for all the keyboard controls and shortcuts for moving around and the commands and parameters that are used to do things in the console.

Just open the controls menu (F8)

A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post Is there anywhere I can find console commands, like how to enter the console or to land at a specific lat/long/elevation or changing the fov, etc.?

Some of the stuff here won't work in 0.980, but the fundamentals are the same (like instructions on how to set values for variables). For example, set fov 45, set landlod 2, etc. Look in the "variables" section.

http://spaceengine.org/manual/making-ad ... o-scripts/
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vlad01
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04 Dec 2018 15:00

A-L-E-X wrote:
Thanks Vlad!  I see exactly what you mean, I remember reading that timings are actually more important with Ryzen than actual memory speed, so getting faster memory and slightly underclocking it for tighter timings is actually better for performance than vice versa!  With Ryzen I heard the two things to avoid are dual rank and using all 4 memory slots, so for fastest timings and speeds the best option is 2x8 GB memory.  Both 2x16 GB and 4x8 GB can cause issues.

Abner thanks!  Is there anywhere I can find console commands, like how to enter the console or to land at a specific lat/long/elevation or changing the fov, etc.?

I think dual rank is the actual memory stick uses both sides vs single side as both dual and single rank kits can come with only a pair of sticks.  I could be wrong but this is what I have seen looking at kits available and what their supposed rank is.

For ryzen both memory speed and timings are good. Ideally you want both if you can but it can be a trade off at the higher end.

Timing reduces latency which ryzen suffers from higher latency.
The memory/IMC speed seems to be linked to the internal infinity fabric speed, so faster clocked ram seems to get that IF going faster which reduces latency from CCX to CCX and increases bandwidth, also the added memory bandwidth helps as Ryzen is memory starved.  It's a complex interplay and the gains further benefit (less held back) when the cores are OC'd as well.

Which future zen designs there is news of doubled cache and eventually DDR5 support which I know AMD are pushing hard to get DDR5 up on the market with their partners.    This shows that memory is very key to zen.  The cache side directly impacts the need to access memory as frequently and obviously having even faster ddr5 will give much needed bandwidth. Their upcoming designs have reworked front ends which held the performance back to similar levels as skylake but the back end is vastly wider than anything from camp blue at the moment.  3000 series has a reworked front end so the CPU throughput will be improved a lot and I see why they have the need for higher speed ram and more cache.

The cache is meant to be double in 3000 series but ddr5 will come the gen after that.  I seriously can't wait! The most exciting time in CPUs since core2  and Athlon 64 prior to that. :D
 
vlad01
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04 Dec 2018 15:05

N0B0DY wrote:
I ordered 4 of those so that I can play Star Citizen at 4k.
Even better: I ordered X of those so that I can play Y game at Z resolution. XYZ are variables of you choice..
.
.
.
.
.
.
Trolling in case anyone took me seriously :P..
On a side note I think NVidia is trolling us with the RTX series and its pricing in general..

It just works!
Just buy it!
:lol:
 
A-L-E-X
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04 Dec 2018 16:23

HarbingerDawn wrote:
A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post Do you have an ASUS motherboard HD?

Yes

A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post Is there any site or file or somewhere in the program where I can access all this?  Basically I'm looking for all the keyboard controls and shortcuts for moving around and the commands and parameters that are used to do things in the console.

Just open the controls menu (F8)

A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post Is there anywhere I can find console commands, like how to enter the console or to land at a specific lat/long/elevation or changing the fov, etc.?

Some of the stuff here won't work in 0.980, but the fundamentals are the same (like instructions on how to set values for variables). For example, set fov 45, set landlod 2, etc. Look in the "variables" section.

http://spaceengine.org/manual/making-ad ... o-scripts/

Thanks I just found it!
 
A-L-E-X
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04 Dec 2018 16:28

vlad01 wrote:
A-L-E-X wrote:
Thanks Vlad!  I see exactly what you mean, I remember reading that timings are actually more important with Ryzen than actual memory speed, so getting faster memory and slightly underclocking it for tighter timings is actually better for performance than vice versa!  With Ryzen I heard the two things to avoid are dual rank and using all 4 memory slots, so for fastest timings and speeds the best option is 2x8 GB memory.  Both 2x16 GB and 4x8 GB can cause issues.

Abner thanks!  Is there anywhere I can find console commands, like how to enter the console or to land at a specific lat/long/elevation or changing the fov, etc.?

I think dual rank is the actual memory stick uses both sides vs single side as both dual and single rank kits can come with only a pair of sticks.  I could be wrong but this is what I have seen looking at kits available and what their supposed rank is.

For ryzen both memory speed and timings are good. Ideally you want both if you can but it can be a trade off at the higher end.

Timing reduces latency which ryzen suffers from higher latency.
The memory/IMC speed seems to be linked to the internal infinity fabric speed, so faster clocked ram seems to get that IF going faster which reduces latency from CCX to CCX and increases bandwidth, also the added memory bandwidth helps as Ryzen is memory starved.  It's a complex interplay and the gains further benefit (less held back) when the cores are OC'd as well.

Which future zen designs there is news of doubled cache and eventually DDR5 support which I know AMD are pushing hard to get DDR5 up on the market with their partners.    This shows that memory is very key to zen.  The cache side directly impacts the need to access memory as frequently and obviously having even faster ddr5 will give much needed bandwidth. Their upcoming designs have reworked front ends which held the performance back to similar levels as skylake but the back end is vastly wider than anything from camp blue at the moment.  3000 series has a reworked front end so the CPU throughput will be improved a lot and I see why they have the need for higher speed ram and more cache.

The cache is meant to be double in 3000 series but ddr5 will come the gen after that.  I seriously can't wait! The most exciting time in CPUs since core2  and Athlon 64 prior to that. :D

I wonder if DDR5 will work with current X470 series motherboards?  In the past there hasn't been a backwards compatibility between memory generations.  Do you think with the next generation of Ryzen processors 2x8 GB will no longer be the "sweet spot" and the sweet spot will be 2x16 GB or maybe even 2x32 GB?  Samsung has just introduced 32 GB memory per stick, though it isn't compatible with Ryzen yet.  A BIOS update could make it compatible with current X470 motherboards since it's still DDR4 (dont know if a BIOS update would be enough to make DDR5 memory compatible with these boards.)
 
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HarbingerDawn
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04 Dec 2018 17:13

A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post Do you think with the next generation of Ryzen processors 2x8 GB will no longer be the "sweet spot" and the sweet spot will be 2x16 GB or maybe even 2x32 GB?

That depends upon the software you use, not on the CPU or motherboard. The "sweet spot" is whatever amount you need for what you do. 8-16 GB is good for most people. My mom doesn't even use 4. I need at least 32. There is no one right answer.
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vlad01
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04 Dec 2018 19:15

A-L-E-X wrote:
vlad01 wrote:
A-L-E-X wrote:
Thanks Vlad!  I see exactly what you mean, I remember reading that timings are actually more important with Ryzen than actual memory speed, so getting faster memory and slightly underclocking it for tighter timings is actually better for performance than vice versa!  With Ryzen I heard the two things to avoid are dual rank and using all 4 memory slots, so for fastest timings and speeds the best option is 2x8 GB memory.  Both 2x16 GB and 4x8 GB can cause issues.

Abner thanks!  Is there anywhere I can find console commands, like how to enter the console or to land at a specific lat/long/elevation or changing the fov, etc.?

I think dual rank is the actual memory stick uses both sides vs single side as both dual and single rank kits can come with only a pair of sticks.  I could be wrong but this is what I have seen looking at kits available and what their supposed rank is.

For ryzen both memory speed and timings are good. Ideally you want both if you can but it can be a trade off at the higher end.

Timing reduces latency which ryzen suffers from higher latency.
The memory/IMC speed seems to be linked to the internal infinity fabric speed, so faster clocked ram seems to get that IF going faster which reduces latency from CCX to CCX and increases bandwidth, also the added memory bandwidth helps as Ryzen is memory starved.  It's a complex interplay and the gains further benefit (less held back) when the cores are OC'd as well.

Which future zen designs there is news of doubled cache and eventually DDR5 support which I know AMD are pushing hard to get DDR5 up on the market with their partners.    This shows that memory is very key to zen.  The cache side directly impacts the need to access memory as frequently and obviously having even faster ddr5 will give much needed bandwidth. Their upcoming designs have reworked front ends which held the performance back to similar levels as skylake but the back end is vastly wider than anything from camp blue at the moment.  3000 series has a reworked front end so the CPU throughput will be improved a lot and I see why they have the need for higher speed ram and more cache.

The cache is meant to be double in 3000 series but ddr5 will come the gen after that.  I seriously can't wait! The most exciting time in CPUs since core2  and Athlon 64 prior to that. :D

I wonder if DDR5 will work with current X470 series motherboards?  In the past there hasn't been a backwards compatibility between memory generations.  Do you think with the next generation of Ryzen processors 2x8 GB will no longer be the "sweet spot" and the sweet spot will be 2x16 GB or maybe even 2x32 GB?  Samsung has just introduced 32 GB memory per stick, though it isn't compatible with Ryzen yet.  A BIOS update could make it compatible with current X470 motherboards since it's still DDR4 (dont know if a BIOS update would be enough to make DDR5 memory compatible with these boards.)

I believe the CPU will be backwards compatible, but will need a new board for ddr5 as it's electrically and physically different. This was the case in the past as well with the FX line up, they can do both ddr3 and ddr2 but you need to use the right board in each case.
 
A-L-E-X
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04 Dec 2018 22:37

HarbingerDawn wrote:
A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post Do you think with the next generation of Ryzen processors 2x8 GB will no longer be the "sweet spot" and the sweet spot will be 2x16 GB or maybe even 2x32 GB?

That depends upon the software you use, not on the CPU or motherboard. The "sweet spot" is whatever amount you need for what you do. 8-16 GB is good for most people. My mom doesn't even use 4. I need at least 32. There is no one right answer.

The good thing about the board is that it supports up to 64.  The problem is that with the current generation, memory overclocking doesn't work as well with 2x16 (32 GB) memory as it does 2x8 (16 GB) memory.
 
A-L-E-X
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04 Dec 2018 22:39

vlad01 wrote:
A-L-E-X wrote:
vlad01 wrote:
I think dual rank is the actual memory stick uses both sides vs single side as both dual and single rank kits can come with only a pair of sticks.  I could be wrong but this is what I have seen looking at kits available and what their supposed rank is.

For ryzen both memory speed and timings are good. Ideally you want both if you can but it can be a trade off at the higher end.

Timing reduces latency which ryzen suffers from higher latency.
The memory/IMC speed seems to be linked to the internal infinity fabric speed, so faster clocked ram seems to get that IF going faster which reduces latency from CCX to CCX and increases bandwidth, also the added memory bandwidth helps as Ryzen is memory starved.  It's a complex interplay and the gains further benefit (less held back) when the cores are OC'd as well.

Which future zen designs there is news of doubled cache and eventually DDR5 support which I know AMD are pushing hard to get DDR5 up on the market with their partners.    This shows that memory is very key to zen.  The cache side directly impacts the need to access memory as frequently and obviously having even faster ddr5 will give much needed bandwidth. Their upcoming designs have reworked front ends which held the performance back to similar levels as skylake but the back end is vastly wider than anything from camp blue at the moment.  3000 series has a reworked front end so the CPU throughput will be improved a lot and I see why they have the need for higher speed ram and more cache.

The cache is meant to be double in 3000 series but ddr5 will come the gen after that.  I seriously can't wait! The most exciting time in CPUs since core2  and Athlon 64 prior to that. :D

I wonder if DDR5 will work with current X470 series motherboards?  In the past there hasn't been a backwards compatibility between memory generations.  Do you think with the next generation of Ryzen processors 2x8 GB will no longer be the "sweet spot" and the sweet spot will be 2x16 GB or maybe even 2x32 GB?  Samsung has just introduced 32 GB memory per stick, though it isn't compatible with Ryzen yet.  A BIOS update could make it compatible with current X470 motherboards since it's still DDR4 (dont know if a BIOS update would be enough to make DDR5 memory compatible with these boards.)

I believe the CPU will be backwards compatible, but will need a new board for ddr5 as it's electrically and physically different. This was the case in the past as well with the FX line up, they can do both ddr3 and ddr2 but you need to use the right board in each case.

Right thats what I was thinking too.  The only case I remember where two different generations of memory could be used were the Asrock 4core dual boards which actually had two different types of DDR slots- I happened to own one of those boards lol.  They're awesome for longevity, mine lasted through three hard drives.
 
vlad01
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04 Dec 2018 23:03

Yeah actually I do recall asrock making weird combo boards. They have done it forever, even ones with 2 different CPU or graphics socket/slots for upgrading.

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