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A-L-E-X
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11 Dec 2020 15:56

Watsisname wrote:
A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post but it's a logical conclusion that the best location for telescopes (of any kind) are low humidity desert locations

I would replace your parenthetical part with (optical and infrared). Optical telescopes favor dark skies far from urban light pollution, as well as stable and transparent air which is usually found at high altitude. Hence they tend to be located on remote and arid mountain summits. Infrared observations are hindered by the absorption of IR by water vapor in the atmosphere, so they favor high altitude as well. Put the two together, this is why most observatories are located where they are. But the radar functions of Arecibo's large dish aren't affected by light pollution, humidity, or even clouds. They go right through them.

Consider the Greenbank radio telescope in West Virginia. It would not be a particularly great location for an optical observatory, because it's often cloudy. But it doesn't care about clouds, and it does care about radio interference, which is why the area is a radio quiet zone.

A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post Ah, geopolitical....so now we see what's going on here.  That location had very little to do with science. I intensely dislike it when any kind of politics or military BS taints and corrupts science, same as with corporate influences.

It had a lot to do with both, and the choice in location ended up producing nearly 60 years of excellent science -- both for missile defense and for astronomy. I think it's rather fortuitous that a project that had military applications also had such significant and broad astronomical applications, and captured the public's interest as much as it did.

I dont disagree with you Wat, it's why I'm so emotional about this.  Going back to the 80s when I was in elementary school, I've been fascinated by radio astronomy and this telescope in particular.  I remember reading a book in 4th grade called in Quest of Quasars by Ben Bova which mentioned the extreme redshifts of quasars and how puzzling they were back then and that's what got me hooked on quasars and radio astronomy.  It's a truly sad loss.  I was reading about other large radio telescopes and I ran across another I remember reading about back then....Jodrell Bank observatories in England.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jodrell_B ... y#Research
Looks like they do research for SETI and into the CMBR too.  I think this is where pulsars were discovered?  They were going to be shut down about a decade ago but they rallied round to find the funding to keep going.
One of the reasons I love radio astronomy is because it is much less hindered by our own atmosphere than optical astronomy is, however I thought that to maintain the equipment in top condition you still needed a relatively dry climate at high elevation.  
 
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14 Dec 2020 05:04

As far as I know, radioastronomy is now quite developed. The sufficient level of technology makes it possible to send radiotelescopes into space. It seems to me that it is dry and calm enough there to hope for long-term uninterrupted operation of these devices. Given a way to get a stable signal with minimal latency, of course. So, I don't think Arecibo's departure is an irreparable loss for the community. Rather, it marks the end of several eras at once
 
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15 Dec 2020 03:17

To your regret, but to the great happiness of some enthusiastic people, all the most ambitious, cool, well-working projects always come from military developments. Ideal for fans of astronomy, this is the intersection of the military, civil and space development in one place. And at the same time exclusively (!) peaceful use. 


Many great achievements of medicine, astronomy, cosmology came only from war. But you won't deny their useful functions because of this?
 
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15 Dec 2020 23:20

TommyJ wrote:
To your regret, but to the great happiness of some enthusiastic people, all the most ambitious, cool, well-working projects always come from military developments. Ideal for fans of astronomy, this is the intersection of the military, civil and space development in one place. And at the same time exclusively (!) peaceful use. 


Many great achievements of medicine, astronomy, cosmology came only from war. But you won't deny their useful functions because of this?

I dont think so.  Undeniably some have but certainly not "most" let alone "all."  The military has a LONG history of manipulating scientists who thought the purposes were for peaceful research into much more insidious areas.  If I started quoting all of the ones I know of, it would fill many books- including many in which human beings were the subjects of experiments that caused cancer (like radiation experiments)  and even intentional infections of groups of people (specifically minorities or people in third world countries- which they ended up regretting later when they lost multibillion dollar lawsuits.  This didn't even end all that long ago- or need I remind you of the tortures conducted at Guantanamo Bay which represented the combination of military and corrupt individuals in the psychiatric profession [which also has a long history of experimenting on mental patients and in the LBTQ+ community.]   Of course the corporate sector has done very similar things, many times in conjunction with the military, I dont vouch for them either. Some of these areas are "crowd control" and the creation of harmful devices that damage the brain to disperse peaceful protestors and warrantless surveillance.)  Also the much-quoted Tuskeegee Experiments and the even worse intentional infection of 774 people in Guatemala by needle with syphilis to test a new drug on them as well as drug experiments on their own soldiers that resulted in brain damage by an experimental antimalarial drug during Desert Storm in Iraq- another needless war started by a lie in which war crimes were committed just like they are now in Yemen.  It was done by both public and private military groups called "mercenaries" like they have been doing for centuries to people in third world nations across several continents to steal their resources and subjugate their people.  The whole military-industrial complex is one vast moneymaking scheme that pretends to be "patriotic" (Eisenhower warned us of this, and he would have known better than anyone since he was in charge of it.)  People are only just becoming aware of it because of various needless conflicts that are going on in the world.  

Astronomy and space exploration is an entirely different category and out of all the different areas of science, that's the one where the intersection of the military and civilian sectors has done some good work without causing irreparable damage to different cultures and pillaging of their resources.  But it doesn't mean we can ignore the heinous and horrible things that have happened in the past and continue to occur in many parts of the world.
 
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16 Dec 2020 06:42

A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post I dont think so.  Undeniably some have but certainly not "most" let alone "all."  The military has a LONG history of manipulating scientists who thought the purposes were for peaceful research into much more insidious areas.  If I started quoting all of the ones I know of, it would fill many books- including many in which human beings were the subjects of experiments that caused cancer (like radiation experiments)  and even intentional infections of groups of people (specifically minorities or people in third world countries- which they ended up regretting later when they lost multibillion dollar lawsuits.  This didn't even end all that long ago- or need I remind you of the tortures conducted at Guantanamo Bay which represented the combination of military and corrupt individuals in the psychiatric profession [which also has a long history of experimenting on mental patients and in the LBTQ+ community.]   Of course the corporate sector has done very similar things, many times in conjunction with the military, I dont vouch for them either.


I understand you perfectly. And all these experiments of power over citizens, the rich over the poor, etc., began rather from the very formation of society. So I think the problem here is not in specific governments, but in the specific nature of a whole group of people. These people have always been and always will be. No matter how the social system changes.
Let's say we take the Venus project, which is described in many places as heaven on Earth.
Even with the implementation of such a project, such people will still grow up in those conditions.

Unfortunately, people are the problem. This can hardly be changed. It is unlikely that we will go through the path of evolution towards more peaceful behavior. Quite the opposite. They will just learn to disguise all experiments as a good cause.
 
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16 Dec 2020 06:59

TommyJ wrote:
A-L-E-X wrote:
Source of the post I dont think so.  Undeniably some have but certainly not "most" let alone "all."  The military has a LONG history of manipulating scientists who thought the purposes were for peaceful research into much more insidious areas.  If I started quoting all of the ones I know of, it would fill many books- including many in which human beings were the subjects of experiments that caused cancer (like radiation experiments)  and even intentional infections of groups of people (specifically minorities or people in third world countries- which they ended up regretting later when they lost multibillion dollar lawsuits.  This didn't even end all that long ago- or need I remind you of the tortures conducted at Guantanamo Bay which represented the combination of military and corrupt individuals in the psychiatric profession [which also has a long history of experimenting on mental patients and in the LBTQ+ community.]   Of course the corporate sector has done very similar things, many times in conjunction with the military, I dont vouch for them either.


I understand you perfectly. And all these experiments of power over citizens, the rich over the poor, etc., began rather from the very formation of society. So I think the problem here is not in specific governments, but in the specific nature of a whole group of people. These people have always been and always will be. No matter how the social system changes.
Let's say we take the Venus project, which is described in many places as heaven on Earth.
Even with the implementation of such a project, such people will still grow up in those conditions.

Unfortunately, people are the problem. This can hardly be changed. It is unlikely that we will go through the path of evolution towards more peaceful behavior. Quite the opposite. They will just learn to disguise all experiments as a good cause.

Yes that is certainly the case, the nature of people and what power does to people.  I do think this can be changed, because it's become an existential threat now with climate change.  Personally I like nations to stay neutral and behave according to the Nordic Model.  I saw a recent episode of Cosmos where it was mentioned how change happened....nuclear testing of weapons was stopped by most nations in the 60s when mothers protested because their breast milk had been found to have a quantity of radiation in it due to all the nuclear testing that happened, the usage of CFC was curtailed not because of leaders, but because of a large public outcry against the damage to the ozone layer.  The answer is change does happen, if a large number of people become angry enough to either protest and shut things down or enact massive class action lawsuits against the corrupting companies, like we are doing now with the fossil fuel cartels.  Massive class action lawsuits to stop the opioid drug industry and the corporate buy up of hospitals that used their near monopolies to artificially raise the price of healthcare.  Endanger their business model and things will change.  Snowden did that to the surveillance state when he whistleblew what was going on and they were exposed for all the world to see.
 
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17 Dec 2020 01:55

Hmm ... if enough people get angry enough ...

I don't think this will solve the problem. And just change it to another. Yes, in countries where laws and courts are in place, this can help. But what prevents from moving bases to third world countries? As it is done now. No one there will protest if they are given work or in some cases just water
 
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17 Dec 2020 04:43

I believe people can be more altruistic though I also agree with what you are saying, it's hard work, but it's a worthwhile endeavor.

I wanted to share an experience....last night I saw the most amazing display of empathy I've ever seen, and it came from the world of nature.  Literally....Nature's episode last night showed how animals show empathy to animals even of different species.  There was a blind horse at a farm and a goat that lived there also, and without being given any kind of "command" the goat took it upon himself to guide the blind horse to food each and every day after the horse became blind (somehow he knew) for 16 whole years that remained of the horse's life.  Each and every day that goat led his friend to his favorite patch for food, and while previously he used to munch on the grass every step of the way going there and coming back, he gave that up so that he could guide his best friend without fail so he wouldn't be led astray.  First the horse was blind in one eye and the goat positioned himself in front of the one good eye and then the horse became blind in both eyes and the goat centered himself so the horse could hear his steps better and because he somehow knew the horse had now become blind in both eyes.  After 16 years of being such a faithful friend the horse finally breathed his last breath and the goat laid by him as if remembering him and a few minutes later he quietly laid down a few yards away.  The owner of the farm reported that the old goat hasn't been the same since, he eats much less and he often stops at their old patch and just quietly stands there watching.  The horse was buried there and the owner of the farm said his best friend, the goat, will be buried there one day too.
 
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18 Dec 2020 01:50

Yes, this is a rather interesting and instructive story. I noticed something else. People who have the opportunity to often come into contact with the world of animals are much more likely to be kind to everyone. And those who have comprehended all the delights of urbanization are more often selfish, arrogant, unpleasant (not all, of course). But the feeling is that it is like a subconscious struggle for territory. Where there is a lot of it, everything becomes easier.

Yes, and you have no time to argue with your neighbor, you need to feed the animals)
 
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18 Dec 2020 06:09

Yes I like how communicating with nature is a form of therapy, while being isolated from it creates higher stress levels, violence and have higher levels of health issues (hypertension, depression, anxiety, asthma, etc.)  Just on a general level, not applicable to everyone of course.  It's been somewhat ameliorated with the development of community gardens (which also make for healthier inner cities and less consumption of processed food, which has led to the diabetes and obesity epidemics in America.)
 
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22 Dec 2020 06:04

Hey, we digress a little from the topic of the topic. Here it seems necessary to discuss the news of space. I've been googling all kinds of things just now. And I came across one development that interested me, which brings us a little closer to the future).
It said that they had already developed and tested a rocket engine capable of restarting in space.
I think this is interesting news, although not very fresh.
Here is the article, in fact, if you don't mind 
 
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12 Jan 2021 09:24

Many have probably already heard about the BLC1 - detected radio signal (982.002 MHz) that spatially coincident with the Proxima star (our nearest galaxy neighbour). Does anyone have any own versions about this?
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14 Jan 2021 07:31

The most advanced space company of the present time

What do you think is the most advanced private space company ( except Space X ) at the present time? Nowadays, private space company really succeeded and manufactures pretty good technology and space vehicle

Mod edit: fixed text colors. --Wats
 
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